FRFR Users: How much does the quality of the FOH system matter?

L

LostInSpace

Inspired
Over the past year I have slowly been moving toward an FRFR setup. Started using 4CM, then Axe2->Tube Amp FX Return->Trad Cab, then Axe2->Matrix SS Amp->Trad Cab, now Axe2->Matrix Amp->Matrix NL12. My cab is miced to FOH. All of these have worked well, and my rig has gotten lighter and more flexible with each change. Recently I got a piezo equipped quitar (PRS P22) and I'm really enjoying adding it to my setup. To get the most out of it, I really need an FRFR setup, so I think I'm finally going to go the last step and try a CLR and run direct. I plan in a cover band where we mostly do clubs of various sizes, some have house sound, other times we hire a sound company. The quality of the PA systems and sound guys varies a lot.

I read people's posts saying how great their modeler sounds with a quality FRFR monitor like the CLR, and I believe them. My question is, though, do those same patches sound as good through an average PA? In other words, if the quality of the PA is going to be the limiting factor, does it really matter that my patches are dialed on a very expensive, flat monitor? Those of you who are FRFR guys without the luxury of using your own quality PA system for all gigs, do you still have consistency issues? Thanks!
 
LostInSpace said:
My question is, though, do those same patches sound as good through an average PA? In other words, if the quality of the PA is going to be the limiting factor, does it really matter that my patches are dialed on a very expensive, flat monitor? Those of you who are FRFR guys without the luxury of using your own quality PA system for all gigs, do you still have consistency issues? Thanks!
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You want your presets to start out as accurate as possible, just like the tone of a traditional guitar rig. What I have found and I think most will agree is if your happy with what your hearing on stage infront of or behind you depending on how you setup the rest is trivial. Yes you want to sound good out front... look at it this way, if your mic'ing a traditional guitar rig through an average run of the mill PA your tone is going to have the same colorations it would if your were using the Axe right?

If you have built your presets in the Axe using a FRFR speaker that is not as flat as possible you could be adding or subtracting even more content once it goes through the average PA. Your on the right path with a CLR or like solution, dial in your tone the way you like it and the rest will be up to the FOH sound person to get it to sit in the mix and sound good.
 
I am an FRFR guy, own a CLR and run direct to FOH (no PA system of our own). What I care most about is that the sound I send to FOH is as good as I can make it, whatever happens next to it I cannot control. What I hear on stage is consistent and helps me focus on my playing, what the audience hears may vary but I can only do so much there so I don't really bother too much about that. The CLR works well for me in this situation, but is not everyone's product of choice. My view is that you'll always be dependent of PA monitor systems and sound guys: some will be great, some will suck. If I'm happy in my little world which I can control, my playing will reflect that and translate to the music and the audience. The sound might not be the same or as good, but 90% of the audience won't care or know anyway.

Also, out of curiosity, why the desire to go FRFR? You've been playing a lot with traditional cabs and now an FR cab, but the switch to FRFR may be quite a radical one since you'll have to readjust to hearing a close-mic'd sound. Are you still unsatisfied with your sound, or are you trying to make your FOH sound more consistent? If the quality of PAs you get is all over the place this might not be the way to go. If you're happy with your setup and sound, you might not have to bother going down the FRFR rabbit hole. The world of IRs can be as big as you like and could complicate things way beyond the simpler setup you're currently rocking. Not trying to deter you from having a go, but this is more just a heads up that the switch may be more involved than you might expect. :)
 
This is a tricky issue.

Just because you have great monitors and even a treated room doesn't mean you will be able to dial in great sounds. It just means you don't have to compensate (as much) for changes in the sound due to the speaker system or room.

I personally find tones created with CLR's in my project studio seem to translate pretty good to lots of different PA gear. From consumer stuff up to the big boy stuff.

There are lots of great records made without using true FRFR monitors.

In my experience, less is always more. The less EQ, gain, efx you use, the easier it is for your tones to translate to many different systems. Radical eq or anything that causes a ton of phase shift or comb filtering can be all over the place as each room and PA will have different peaks and nulls to it.

A great example is the Palmer load box and the Palmer IR's floating around here. Very smooth response and they work really well on lots of systems.
 
You cannot control the house sound systems, and of course they vary from venue to venue. The only things you can do are have great sounding patches and a sound man who will work with your sound to optimize it for the room you are in.

If you use a flat system to make your presets, the only variable will be the house system. If you use a non-flat system to make your presets, now you have that and the house sound system issues.
 
I'm happy with my on-stage sound, but I've decided to try FRFR and run direct because I want the ability to use different cabs (for example, the piezo will sound best with an acoustic guitar body IR or tone match rather than a regular cab). If I can get better FOH consistency, that'll be a nice added benefit, but it's not the main reason. We record all of our shows using a simple MP3 recorder at the sound board, and listening back, the tone varies a fair amount from gig to gig, even when we're using the same sound company. It could be mic placement or coupling of the cab to the type of stage (carpet, hardwood, etc.)… going direct should eliminate those variables. Or, it could also be the acoustics of the each room, the quality of the PA, or the sound guy… direct can't solve these. I figure removing variables certainly won't hurt.

Guess I'm just trying to manage my expectations, and was wondering what others who have done the same have experienced regarding consistency.
 
A PA system will do the same thing I my Axe-Fx tone as it would my mic'd real amp tone.

But with the Axe, I can completely turn off my stage sound and truly hear just the PA that the audience hears and make or suggest adjustments. Even if it's just from the stage, I get a bit of a clue as to what's going on out there.

I'm mostly concerned about it being too shrill.
 
I agree with luke. The possible ways PAs alter a sound cover a certain domain, because the error they make in reproducing a sound is randomic in such space. The best option is to have at home a system which sounds as linear as possible, so to put your sound in the middle of the mentioned space. This minimizes your error in any possible scenario. HTH :)
 
As much time you can spend on your tones, if the pa and sound guy suck, guess what.... was watching a sonisphere youtube of dream theater and JP's guitar sounded like a little gorilla amp... very small, like a metal zone through a pignose. Multiple videos and angels, and you know he obsesses over stuff.

I play for myself first and foremost. If my tone is happening to me, I have more fun, and play better. I can only trust the sound guy knows how to do his job.

Switching from a cab to FRFR is usually a jolt to most people, so allow time and tweak patches at volume.
 
dpeterson said:
As much time you can spend on your tones, if the pa and sound guy suck, guess what.... was watching a sonisphere youtube of dream theater and JP's guitar sounded like a little gorilla amp... very small, like a metal zone through a pignose. Multiple videos and angels, and you know he obsesses over stuff.

I play for myself first and foremost. If my tone is happening to me, I have more fun, and play better. I can only trust the sound guy knows how to do his job.

Switching from a cab to FRFR is usually a jolt to most people, so allow time and tweak patches at volume.
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That's good advice. I've been happily running FW6 because I didn't want to mess with my patches. I'm going to use this as a chance to get current on FW15 and build new patches from scratch, during a period where I don't have any gigs for a few weeks. I usually dial my patches using backing tracks at (near) gig volume, which has worked pretty well.
 
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