FRFR Speaker Auditions

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youngmic

Inspired
Typical scenario here. I'm a new Axe-Fx owner (about a month into it now) trying to choose a FRFR solution. Well, I spent about 3 hours at Guitar Center today auditioning 4 solutions and thought you might like to hear my opinions. My patches are pretty straight forward - Vox, Fender, Egnater, Marshall, and Dumble tones with medium to full drive with a little modulated delay and reverb. Tremolo and Leslie effects on occasion. Currently putting all but the Vox through the 4X12 25W cab and the R121 mic. The Vox is the 2X12 Brit with the U87.

BTW, I like this thing more the more I use it. But that's another post.

Tone influences - think Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa, etc. with a dash of U2, David Gilmore, and Cold Play thrown in. Of course there's always the delta added by my own taste, but that's impossible to describe. I play christian worship music - Delirious, United, Chris Tomlin, David Crowder - the usuals.

My main amp for the last 10 years has been an Egnater TOL 100 through a THD 2X12 with an Intelliverb in the loop. I also have a Boogie Mark IIB and a Matchless HC-30, both rarely used (although the Boogie was my main amp for 20 years before the Egnater). I tend toward darker, mid-rich tones. Egnater presence at 0, treble rolled back to about 10 o'clock, mid at about 2 o'clock, bass about 12 o'clock. Usually mic'd at cone. (I've just started playing with the Redwirez IR's but haven't yet found a mix I prefer. It's still early.) My main guitar is an Anderson Classic with S/S/H - ash body, maple/rosewood neck. I also have a Grosh Classic - same but with Fralin S/S/S.

So that should give you the full context of style/tone/gear experience.

I dialed my patches in using Event 8" studio monitors. Goal was to emulate the 4 TOL Channels, add Vox and others for breadth and option to start. So far so good.

Here's what I played through, followed by my thoughts on each of them.

Yamaha DSR112 - Big and heavy. Lots of bottom in the tone. The darkest of the lot. Not a bad sounding speaker, but too dark for my tastes. Very strong bass and mid-bass. Strongest separation between woofer and horn - almost distracting at times. Seemed raspier than the others as well. Tones seemed to have more "grit".

JBL PRX612 - I really liked this speaker. Very smooth. Least colored tone? Maybe. See my comments on the Mackie. Not sure, but I came back to this one again and again as my preferred choice. Didn't seem to have any holes in the tone. Carried the right balance across the board. Was slightly concerned with some of my clean patches, but they're probably just in need of some tweaking. The least "PA" sounding of the list. Very light - only 36 lbs. This may be the one for me. There is one very odd quirk that I can't figure. The angle of the floor monitor orientation seems to assume that you're going to place the monitor 4 or 5 feet in front of you. Any closer and it points at your knees. Doesn't make sense. If I go with this one, I'll have to prop it up to increase the angle. Weird.

QSC K12 - most colored of the list. Seemed like there was a midrange hole in the tone (or something?). Probably good for some, but not for my tonal preferences (one of the reasons I tried to provide context in that regard).

Mackie HD1521 - I had wanted to audition an HD1221, but no one in LA seems to have them in stock. Instead, I figured I'd try the HD1521 and get an idea of the color. Very interesting. The 1521 is a big cabinet...not at all suitable as a monitor. It is purely a main or a very large side fill. The 1221 is roughly the size of the QSC, but it is heavy - 50lbs. But there were some qualities in the 1521 that really make me want to compare the JBL and the 1221. It was very clean and very present without being harsh. It left me with the impression that I might be hearing the flattest response of all and that I was getting the truest reproduction of the models. I went back and forth between the JBL and Mackie several times and was unable to completely and authoritatively decide which I preferred. One other aspect here is that the church I play in has a Mackie PA so I suspect I will be getting a closer approximation of the color reproduced by the mains.

In the end, my current front runner is the JBL. But I'm still attempting to find a 1221 to try.

I'd like to audition a 12ma as it seems to be the solution of choice for so many, but there are simply none to be found here. Those of you who have had a chance to play through the speakers above and the 12ma, where does the 12ma fall in comparison to these? Which of these is it most like?

Thanks and glad to be a part of the community.
 
Hey Youngmic,

Thanks for the review. I too am very interested in the JBL PRX. Glad that someone had the chance to check it out. Please keep us in the loop with your findings. Now you peaked my interest in the JBL line. Welcome to the forum and the community.

Thanks again,
Ed
:mrgreen:
 
I've attached a screenshot showing the response curves for the Mackie HD1221 (left), Verve 12ma (top right), and JBL PRX612 (bottom right). Unfortunately, I couldn't find curves for the K12 and DSR112.

Can someone who knows comment on how these should be interpreted? Am I correct in reading this as the JBL being the flattest overall, with the Mackie and Verve 2nd and 3rd in that order?
 
Hi, I own a Mesa 4 x 12 Standard Rectifier oversize cab with vintage Celestion 12's powered with a Mesa 2:100 stereo rectifier amp. and a AX- FX Ultra. As you would expect it sounds amazing. Living and working in NYC, cartage was killing me. So I got a Verve 15 ma to replace the 2 Mesa products. I chose the 15ma over the 12ma because I needed the option of reproducing bass thump only the Mesa combo gave me. I was not disappointed. The Mesa oversized 4x12 cab and Rectro stereo amp are now up for sale in the for sale section.http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/v...CTRO+2:100+Stereo+Amp+Mesa+Rectifier+4x12+Cab I bring it up because the 15Ma should be in your consideration if you desire THUMP when you use right hand muting.
 
klaushouz said:
I chose the 15ma over the 12ma because I needed the option of reproducing bass thump only the Mesa combo gave me. I was not disappointed. The Mesa oversized 4x12 cab and Rectro stereo amp are now up for sale in the for sale section.http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/v...CTRO+2:100+Stereo+Amp+Mesa+Rectifier+4x12+Cab I bring it up because the 15Ma should be in your consideration if you desire THUMP when you use right hand muting.
Click to expand...

I haven't played a 12ma or a 15ma, but the 12ma should have been more than enough to match the "thump" of a 4x12. In fact I've heard FRFR systems with 10 inch speakers push more bass that a 4x12. If you look at the freq response, the 12ma is very flat even at the lowest guitar range.

The advantage the 15ma gives is for bass and kick drum and doesn't fall in guitar range. OTOH, it might not be as flat in the mids as a 12 inch solution and it is bigger and heavier.
 
Hi TMP, the mesa combo produced unusual amount of low end because of the oversize cab and the Rectro amp combo. All other regular 4x12 cabs fell short in comparison. The 15 ma produced VERY similar low end when using rt hand mute chunk. My singer, who hates everything except a Mesa Triple Rectifier Stack, was screaming how I would NEVER get that sound with the AX-FX + 15MA. Then I told him the sound that he was listening to for the last 3 songs was the AX-FX +15 Ma AND NOT the Mesa gear. For the 1st time in 12 years, he was speechless. That alone made all this trial and error equipment swapping worth every penny.
 
Thanks. I did see that a bit ago, but had forgotten that he mentioned the JBL. I am one of those people who likes to research thoroughly and try before I buy. I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the Axe-Fx without the 15 day return policy (and I was even able to try it out at Tone Merchants here in LA). Dropping $1000 bucks on a speaker I haven't played through is a big challenge for me.

There's a shop in San Diego that has some 8ma's. Will try to go tomorrow and audition them.
 
BTW, I tried a PRX615 today. Very very close to the PRX612. Just bigger - both amount of air pushed and dimensions. It did have more thump for Rectifier and Marshall tones, but again, it wasn't as much tone as it was just the amount of air pushed. Would probably choose the 12 for my needs.
 
youngmic said:
I've attached a screenshot showing the response curves for the Mackie HD1221 (left), Verve 12ma (top right), and JBL PRX612 (bottom right). Unfortunately, I couldn't find curves for the K12 and DSR112.

Can someone who knows comment on how these should be interpreted? Am I correct in reading this as the JBL being the flattest overall, with the Mackie and Verve 2nd and 3rd in that order?
Click to expand...

It looks like the bottom resolution on the graph for the Verve is different then the other two not sure it's hard to see it clearly. Also it's impossible to know how the measurements were taken so pitting them against one another is pointless. In the end it's your ears that are going to tell you what sounds better. I understand it's nice to have a visual references to go by but it has been posted here that companies will use this kind of info as marketing ploy and it's not always accurate.
 
youngmic,

Have you tried or seen the QSC KW series in your area? They're suppose to be a blend of the HPR and K series by putting the K series in a wooden cab as opossed to a plastic one. Which is suppose to give it a warmer tone.

Thanks for your reviews of these 'cause I'll be looking for a FRFR solution as well.
 
Here's the curve from the 8ma. Wouldn't the response above 1K equate to a pretty colored tone? Pleasing no doubt, based on the its wide use. But accurate?
 
youngmic said:
Thanks. I did see that a bit ago, but had forgotten that he mentioned the JBL. I am one of those people who likes to research thoroughly and try before I buy. I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the Axe-Fx without the 15 day return policy (and I was even able to try it out at Tone Merchants here in LA). Dropping $1000 bucks on a speaker I haven't played through is a big challenge for me.

There's a shop in San Diego that has some 8ma's. Will try to go tomorrow and audition them.
Click to expand...

I think you will like the 8mA and the 12mA is just going to sound bigger... I'm really surprised that the Rob isn't carrying FR solutions to demo, seems it would be beneficial for T.M. to do so. I'm also surprised that Wild West Guitars isn't a dealer for Fractal Audio. The VooDoo lounge is a killer place to see players in a lounge atmosphere and they about have the best selection of PRS guitars on the planet.

As I said, with the response pics I wouldn't take to much stock in how they translate. I would PM Scott Peterson he uses the 8mA and swears by it. I have a 12m that I power with an ART SLA-2 and I love the way this speaker works with the Axe. I haven't heard the the KW series but I would bet that it sounds pretty close the the K series considering it uses the same power amp module and speakers.
 
Sixstring, I hear you. It's just that I have it in my mind to try to get something as flat as possible to optimize the reproduction of the models. The point may be moot because of all the other contributing factors - room, FOH response curves, my mood, etc - but it's a factor in my decision making process nonetheless. I think the Verve chart spl axis is actually a finer scale than the others. If this is the case, the curve actually seems to show more significant peaks and valleys than the others. Equating the scales of the other two would actually make these variations appear even greater. Having said all of that, I do hope to audition the 8ma's tomorrow.

Axisman, I have not. No one has the KW122's in stock. Only the bigger 3 way cabs.

Thanks for your responses. They help me think through this decision.
 
youngmic, my main venue is church too. My methodology was to make sure the house system was flat (using white noise and a Raine analyzer), then, using a 31 band EQ, made sure my monitor was flat. So, in theory, the guitar tone I'm hearing on stage should be pretty close to what the congregants are hearing. Of course, I'm hearing it from 4-5' away, and they are hearing it from 20-80' feet away (with a nasty slap-back from the rear wall), but I don't know how to do better. The one thing I have come to realize is that you have to be very careful with the lows and mid-lows. Too much and, in the room, all you are in the mix is mud. It's hard though, 'cause I like to move air just as much as the next guy.
 
OK. I visited Music Mart in San Diego to try a pair of 8ma's. No HD1221's or 12ma's to be found anywhere in Southern California (if anyone knows differently, please clue me in).

So...my impressions. They sounded great. But in my opinion, they're pretty colored. I can definitely see how some have likened them to the K12 but with smoother highs and upper-mids. I can also see how many have described them as being very guitar cab like.

I really want to try a 12ma. While there was an impressive amount of sound coming from the small 8ma's, it still seemed compressed somehow. They've got to be extremely convenient, but they just didn't feel like they had the girth that I'll want sometimes.

They were very clear, extremely articulate, and very capable. They were also very strong in the upper mids - too strong for my tastes, based on where my patches are at the moment. I would likely have to tweak my patches to be happy (or at least install the 10.03 update apparently :) ). And this is where some concern enters the picture. I am probably over thinking this, but it seems like rolling off the highs to compensate for the Verve's strong top end would potentially make the sound out of the FOH speakers sound too dark.

So I'm not sure if these are for me. This is tough. I feel like I should like them more. They are clearly very good and much more "guitar like" than anything I've played yet. They are also clearly capable of very aggressive tones that would cut through any mix. I'd characterize the JBL's as a "kinder" speaker.

I had hoped that I would've liked the Verve's so much that the choice would have been easy. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. So the quest for a decision continues...
 
Sixstring said:
Though this was interesting...

http://www.fbtusa.net/JMarrtestamonialVerve12ma.html
Click to expand...


Hey, somebody actually read that?!!

That's me!

I did try the PRX612...and it was decent...but had too much of the artificial high end that most JBL speakers seem to have (to my ears). Too sizzly.
The Verve (when I had it side by side with the PRX) had a nice smooth mid range that sounded like a guitar cab to me. I use a JBL SRX700 series PA (dual 18 subs, dual 12 tops)...PA rips, but also has the artifical JBL rip your face off top end. I just don't like it. The reason I use it is because vocals sound great through the JBL stuff. But for just amplifying my Axe...I LOVE my Verve.

I'm happy somebody actually read the testimonial I sent to FBT....but always remember, it's just one man's opinion.

And I've said this before...if anyone in Boston wants to check out a Verve 12, shoot me a PM. I'd gladly let someone run their Axe through mine prior to buying their own.
And I'd also love to do an FRFR shootout with anyone in New England that is up for it.

- Jay Marr
 
Thanks Jay. Interesting. I know what you're talking about in regard to JBL. But that characteristic didn't seem present in the PRX612. I know everyone hears things a little differently though. Additionally, my ears are far from trained in the evaluation of FRFR speakers so I actually may be listening for the wrong things.

It might be that going with the 12ma's is the right thing to do. I still may decide in that direction.

If I were in Boston, I'd definitely take you up on your offer.

Mike
 
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