FRFR assistance

A

admgloval

Inspired
First off, I'll apologize in advance for any spelling/grammar mistakes I will probably make in this posting!

This is my second go-round messing with FRFR and I was hoping someone could assist me with understanding how it works and maybe dialing in a sound that I am happy with.

I'll put what I have come to understand about FRFR, whether I am right or wrong, maybe someone can correct me and put me on the right track!

What I have taken out of all the threads I have read regarding FRFR is that the tone you hear coming out of an FRFR speaker when using the Axe with cab modeling enabled and a cab in your signal chain is a simulation of that amp/cabinet combo mic'ed up and coming out of PA speakers in a club for live application OR coming out of studio monitors in a studio for recording.

I understand that this does not (or is not supposed to) sound the same as a guitar amp/cab in-the-room (from what I have read, I have never mic'ed a guitar cab myself so I have never heard what it sounds like personally).

The first time I tried FRFR, I purchased a CLR. I kept it for the trial period and messed with it everyday but was never happy with any sounds that I got out of it. It seemed to add some kind of strange sound frequency or frequencies that sounded (to me) harsh and artificial, almost like a cheap distortion pedal, and no amount of EQ could get rid of it or make it sound ANYTHING like the way the Axe sounds through a poweramp/guitar cab in-the-room. So I sent it back.

For awhile I used the Axe with my Mesa 2-90 and 4x12 cab with power amp modeling on and cab modeling off. This sounded great but it tended to make the amps all kind of sound the same. I then decided to purchase a solid state power amp (Carvin DCM1540L) and I have been using that with my 4x12 cab and I am VERY happy with the way that sounds. To me, it really shows the power of the Axe and all of the amps have a different (and great!) tone to them.

After reading about Xitone and how Mick's cabs have a more guitar-cab sound to them, I decided to try FRFR again and I ordered the 2x12 passive cab. The cool thing about Mick's cabs is he adds a switch that allows you to switch between FRFR and guitar-cab type of sound.

I received the cab last week and immediately tried it in guitar cab mode. It sounds very similar to my 4x12, a bit brighter maybe but this could be due to the difference between a 2x12 and a 4x12, not to mention that the only guitar speaker I am personally familiar with is the Celestion G12T series speakers (I have the G12T-100's in my cab and a friend of mine has a Marshall 1960B with G12T-75's which sound very similar) and these are basically PA speakers with a custom crossover that Mick builds to make it sound like a guitar speaker.

But when I switch it to FRFR mode, again that harsh sound comes into the mix and I just can't seem to dial it out. I have gone through all of the factory cabs and although there are some that sound better than others, they all have that harsh/sterile sound to them. I know that this can't be "just the way FRFR sounds" since so many people seem to be really happy with it. Is there a significant difference to the way it sounds through an FRFR speaker vs into a DAW and out of studio monitor speakers? I have heard many recordings from different people and their recorded tones sound great. I just cant seem to reconcile what it sounds like through amp/cab with cab modeling off vs amp/frfr with cab modeling on.

If anyone has any suggestions, I would be happy to try them out since I really want this to work! Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.

Also, I haven't done it yet but I may try to make an audio recording of what it sounds like in guitar cab mode with cab modeling off vs FRFR with cab modeling on. I need to find my wife's audio recorder though, a smartphone mic just won't hack it...
 
admgloval said:
Also, I haven't done it yet but I may try to make an audio recording of what it sounds like in guitar cab mode with cab modeling off vs FRFR with cab modeling on. I need to find my wife's audio recorder though, a smartphone mic just won't hack it...
Click to expand...

Please get us that smartphone mic recording ASAP. It's a starting point, and until then, we don't know exactly what you're talking about regarding that frequency with FRFR.
 
FRFR = FULL RANGE, flat response.

A guitar cab maxes out around 8mhz, a full range around 20mhz.

You need to remove those higher frequencies, which can be done in the Cab block High Cut or by using a shelving PEQ.
 
Read all of Cliff's Notes TM posted in the "Tech Notes" section. It's a good place to start. A lot of the posts go into some theory behind certain parameters, which might give you some new insights. Also, I'm pretty sure a couple of them specifically reference the elusive "in the room" amp feel.
 
Try this....Set the cab block to UR stereo and use 2 different, but complimenting IRs(Panned center). Cut lows and highs in the cab block. In general I set the Highcut=7000-9000, and Lowcut=105-125. I also use the delay parameter setting it to .0400-.0600 on one of the IRs in the stereo cab. Add a little Room effect in the cab block, 25% or so and room size around 8. This is all dependent on the amp and cab blocks used in the patch. This should help make everything sound more natural. Play with the settings and trust your ears. I struggled with FRFR at first too because it isn't what we're used to hearing in a live environment. I also use a guitar cab for back line in addition to the CLRs. (Still love the way it sounds and feels and we can have this setup with the Axe). This helped me realize that I had to adjust my live presets as they were too "full range" when compared to the regular cab sound. Having made the above adjustments in the cab block, the direct signal from FRFR sounds 100% better and more natural. The other benefit is that for 95% of the shows, there is little to no adjustment needed at the board for my guitar sound. Not boomy, not harsh, not artificial-sounding--just sounds right and fits in the mix. FRFR is NOT going to sound or feel like a live cab on stage, but FRFR can sound incredibly good with the right settings.
 
Interesting. I made kinda similar experiences with the CLR and am wondering, whether to stick to FRFR or not. I love the concept/idea but not loving the tones i get out of it for the reasons you mentioned. I have my CLR mounted on a pole at approx. head heigth. I noticed that the harshness is less prominent when using it as a monitor/wedge, but i guess it is not ideal to dial in sounds in this position, as the audience is getting the FOH sound right in the face.
 
question for people who've been using the axe with full range (amp and cab sims) for a while:

if you start with a blank preset, shunt it all the way, then add amp and cab of your choice, do you find that you NEED to use the high and low cut options?

one might think that the IR creation process would already cut the extreme highs and lows, since it's a representation of a mic capturing a real guitar cab. the real guitar cab already cuts those frequencies, so the IR should do so as well. but perhaps we don't realize that with a real amp and cab, after that mic is sent to the mixer or studio desk, the Sound Engineer will adjust the highs and lows on their mixer - they won't just take any mic signal and say "oh this is 100% good to go, leave the channel flat."

this is one task that the Mic Preamps in the Cab block can accomplish - a simple 3 band EQ so it fits better in the mix. the High and Low cuts in the Cab and Amp blocks can help, but i feel those are broad strokes, and though sometimes necessary, maybe the EQ in the Cab Mic Pre could do it - just like you would on any mixer.

of course every situation is different, but i've recently been thinking about this concept in general and wondering why i always jump to the high and low cuts almost immediately.

i brought all of this up because the OP stated he never mic'd a cab and heard it from a control room or PA FOH, and with Full Range setups including Cab sims, that's basically what he's hearing. so really, he is being introduced to EQ'ing a guitar signal as a sound engineer for the first time.

Frozen said:
I noticed that the harshness is less prominent when using it as a monitor/wedge, but i guess it is not ideal to dial in sounds in this position, as the audience is getting the FOH sound right in the face.
Click to expand...

as a sound engineer myself, it's amazing how quickly the guitar tone changes as the guitarist plays and someone moves the mic across the (real) cab. it goes from harsh to bassy within a span of an inch. there is no doubt that a mic on a cab can produce a harsh tone in any situation, so that's definitely not an Axe fault.

IR creation is made with the mic at a certain spot decided by the engineers. perhaps they sound harsh to some, and not to others. perhaps they are made "harsh" yet sound good in a mix of the full band. it's really hard to know, until you load different IRs and see how they work for you.

what i do know is that whenever i read someone had trouble with the Cab sims and then they just made an IR of their own cab that they are used to, with their mic, positioned the way they like, instantly all problems are gone and they are the happiest with their sound.

so i think all of this is an interpretation and preference thing.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
question for people who've been using the axe with full range (amp and cab sims) for a while:

if you start with a blank preset, shunt it all the way, then add amp and cab of your choice, do you find that you NEED to use the high and low cut options?

one might think that the IR creation process would already cut the extreme highs and lows, since it's a representation of a mic capturing a real guitar cab. the real guitar cab already cuts those frequencies, so the IR should do so as well. but perhaps we don't realize that with a real amp and cab, after that mic is sent to the mixer or studio desk, the Sound Engineer will adjust the highs and lows on their mixer - they won't just take any mic signal and say "oh this is 100% good to go, leave the channel flat."

this is one task that the Mic Preamps in the Cab block can accomplish - a simple 3 band EQ so it fits better in the mix. the High and Low cuts in the Cab and Amp blocks can help, but i feel those are broad strokes, and though sometimes necessary, maybe the EQ in the Cab Mic Pre could do it - just like you would on any mixer.

of course every situation is different, but i've recently been thinking about this concept in general and wondering why i always jump to the high and low cuts almost immediately.

i brought all of this up because the OP stated he never mic'd a cab and heard it from a control room or PA FOH, and with Full Range setups including Cab sims, that's basically what he's hearing. so really, he is being introduced to EQ'ing a guitar signal as a sound engineer for the first time.



as a sound engineer myself, it's amazing how quickly the guitar tone changes as the guitarist plays and someone moves the mic across the (real) cab. it goes from harsh to bassy within a span of an inch. there is no doubt that a mic on a cab can produce a harsh tone in any situation, so that's definitely not an Axe fault.

IR creation is made with the mic at a certain spot decided by the engineers. perhaps they sound harsh to some, and not to others. perhaps they are made "harsh" yet sound good in a mix of the full band. it's really hard to know, until you load different IRs and see how they work for you.

what i do know is that whenever i read someone had trouble with the Cab sims and then they just made an IR of their own cab that they are used to, with their mic, positioned the way they like, instantly all problems are gone and they are the happiest with their sound.

so i think all of this is an interpretation and preference thing.
Click to expand...

Yes I always feel like I need to use hi low cut. I did 120/125 and 6k for a while 5 months ago I upped it to 8k and just three weeks ago change it to 15k. It is brighter than I used to use but I am digging it so it is staying there.

You are correct though. He is experiencing a whole new world of mic amp through PA sound. back in my mic'd days I was almost never happy with how I sounded through the PA. Now that I tweak for the PA I am so much happier
 
You may just not like the "FRFR sound". I know I have messed with it off and on for years, but generally prefer doing the same thing you are doing.... poweramp into a guitar cab.


Although, I will say that the best results I have gotten were from doing what people are saying above. Use the low and high cut in the cab block to focus the sound.
 
Well time got away from me tonight and I was unable to do the recording. I will make time tomorrow to do it and then try to figure out how to upload it whether as an attachment or dropbox link or whatnot. I'm also still trying to locate the fancy voice recorder my wife bought last year but it seems to have disappeared...
 
So it sounds as though you've tried a couple configurations and still aren't pleased. I personally thought the CLR was pretty great, 4x12 Marshall+Matrix kicked ass, 212Egnater cab absolutely screamed, but then I tried a XiTone wedge and everything changed. Yes, I had to find the one parameter to switch on and off that made tons of difference for me (bright switch and low cut), but this XiTone had a guitar cab appeal that was easy for me to dial in!
Now I have the XiTone FRFR 212 sitting atop an Egnater 212 cab (non FRFR) and it just soars...

I guess what I'm saying is that it was easy for me to find the sounds I adored because I did what you did til I found the combo I liked most but I learned to dial things in properly before I started selling cabs and buying others. At the end of the day there is absolutely EVERY parameter at your disposal and EVERY facet of sound shaping at your fingertips so I suggest you stop swapping the year and concentrate on dialing in your XiTone cab. I'm here to tell you it isn't the Cabs fault!
Good luck!!

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 
Ok, I finally got something recorded that sounds somewhat decent in quality even though it's still pretty crappy. I'm not sure if this will really help or not since it doesn't quite sound the same recorded as it does to my ears. I had a friend over this weekend and he said it sounded the same to him as it did to me, harsh and sterile, almost mono sounding compared to the Xitone in guitar cab mode or into my 4x12 cab even though both are mono. It's also way more boomy and tinny (don't think those are actually words) in FRFR. To further clarify, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Axe or the cab, I know this is either just something wrong with my ears or some kind of configuration thing that I just don't understand yet. If it's the prior, I may just to have to forget about FRFR and continue to use it with a guitar cab which sounds great to me already. I just feel like I am missing out on a whole other part of the Axe that I should be enjoying but if that's the way it is, that's the way it it'll have to be! Anyway, let me know what you think. If this is too horrible to even listen to, I'll look into trying to figure out a better way to record this and re-upload again.


 
Forgot to add the text that I put in the description block on Soundcloud!

"This is an attempt to try to demonstrate what I consider to be harsh sounding frequencies coming out when I try to use the AFXII in FRFR mode through a Xitone 2x12 cab. The first part (0:00-1:14) is Factory preset #025(Friedman HBE) with the cab and reverb blocks disabled and the cab in guitar cab mode. The second part (1:14-End) is the same preset with cab block enabled and reverb disabled and the cab in FRFR mode. Additionally I used the Locut(125hz) and Hicut(9000hz) in the cab block since the sound was really boomy and tinny and overdriving my crappy smartphone mic. No other changes were made to the preset. I apologize for the low sound quality but it's the best I could come up with at the moment. There is also this phasey sound almost like the mic is moving around the room but it was stationary, no idea what caused that issue."
 
New wrinkle in the fabric! So I figured since I already had the Axe connected up via USB, I would go ahead and look into finding a free DAW and try to do some recordings that way to compare what the recorded tone sounds like coming out of the Axe. So I downloaded the eval copy of Reaper and recorded a few tracks and HOLY WTF! The recorded sound of the preset sounds wayyyy BETTER than the way it sounds playing it live? What gives here? I know I'm a complete n00b to all this recording stuff but shouldn't playing back something I recorded direct out of the Axe through the SAME FRFR cabinet sound exactly the same? Why does it sound better and more natural when listening to it back through said cabinet? Anyone have any ideas?
 
admgloval said:
New wrinkle in the fabric! So I figured since I already had the Axe connected up via USB, I would go ahead and look into finding a free DAW and try to do some recordings that way to compare what the recorded tone sounds like coming out of the Axe. So I downloaded the eval copy of Reaper and recorded a few tracks and HOLY WTF! The recorded sound of the preset sounds wayyyy BETTER than the way it sounds playing it live? What gives here? I know I'm a complete n00b to all this recording stuff but shouldn't playing back something I recorded direct out of the Axe through the SAME FRFR cabinet sound exactly the same? Why does it sound better and more natural when listening to it back through said cabinet? Anyone have any ideas?
Click to expand...

Some FRFR cabs have their own "color" so to speak. If you dig the recorded tone do much you may have to dial some frequencies out via the Global EQ to match it.
 
retro_dad said:
Some FRFR cabs have their own "color" so to speak. If you dig the recorded tone do much you may have to dial some frequencies out via the Global EQ to match it.
Click to expand...

What I don't understand though is I'm hearing the tone that I just played out of the AxeFX played back to me via the DAW through the same cabinet? Wouldn't the "coloring" affect the recorded tone as well? It doesn't make sense to me at all...
 
THANK YOU for that recording. it doesn't matter the quality, it gives us a starting point, and there is definitely a difference between the 2 takes.

it could be some sort of phasing thing going on when you play live, that isn't present on the recording.

what is Output Mode for Output 1 set to in the I/O Audio menu? is it Sum L+R?
 
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