Fractal vs Capture

I see. As I said this is another approach to "feel" as you link it more to inspiration and connection rather than actual physical characteristics of the tone and amp responsiveness. I never had such connections tone wise, instrument wise for sure but there things are more measurable.
My point was more that when people mention the "feel" as an issue with modellers, i m super sceptical. In the Gary Moore example above, i m pretty sure that if he was playing with a crappy practice amp, he would still sound like Gary Moore, maybe not with the best tone but all these playing attributes would have been there.
If we’re talking about “physical characteristics of tone and amp responsiveness,” the feel is the way an amp dynamically responds to your playing… the way it opens up or compresses depending on your picking technique.

When it comes to the tone, you can hear notes and chords “bloom” as they attack and release. A real amp and accurate model will have that dynamic “bloom,” where less accurate options can sound similar frequency-wise, but have a more linear response in that area. So even though they may sound the same, they don’t feel the same under your fingers.

Hopefully that makes sense.
 
Gary Moore live goes from sweet to hungry, from love to joy to sadness... just with pick attack and volume! Feel is the ability to articulate the feeling you had into sounds and emotions. Harmonics content, pick attack, sustain... all those affect feel.
That's not at all what feel is to me.

It's about the way the amp reacts to playing.

1. What do people mean with feel
A couple posts of mine from a recent, related thread:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...odelers-lack-the-amp-feel.191362/post-2379738

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...odelers-lack-the-amp-feel.191362/post-2382026
 
If we’re talking about “physical characteristics of tone and amp responsiveness,” the feel is the way an amp dynamically responds to your playing… the way it opens up or compresses depending on your picking technique.

When it comes to the tone, you can hear notes and chords “bloom” as they attack and release. A real amp and accurate model will have that dynamic “bloom,” where less accurate options can sound similar frequency-wise, but have a more linear response in that area. So even though they may sound the same, they don’t feel the same under your fingers.

Hopefully that makes sense.
It does, but again to me, more or less i get the same response on stuff like picking dynamics, palm mutes, bends and vibrato, harmonics etc, from all the different amps/modellers i play with (tubes, ss, modellers etc). I mean 2 high gain amps and their respective models will always "feel" close enough to me, to not notice any difference on my playing, if they are dialled similarly.
Leo Gibson has good comparisons of amps vs models, where he checks dynamics, not envelope and volume rolls etc. In most cases modellers respond very closely to the amps.
 
If we’re talking about “physical characteristics of tone and amp responsiveness,” the feel is the way an amp dynamically responds to your playing… the way it opens up or compresses depending on your picking technique.

When it comes to the tone, you can hear notes and chords “bloom” as they attack and release. A real amp and accurate model will have that dynamic “bloom,” where less accurate options can sound similar frequency-wise, but have a more linear response in that area. So even though they may sound the same, they don’t feel the same under your fingers.

Hopefully that makes sense.
It is very difficult to articulate “feel” of an amplifier, but once you know, you know.
 
IME, the most accurate profiles/captures I've obtained came from NAM, both in terms of sound and feel (doesn't have the high frequency roll-off of tonex for example). It's a bit convoluted to install it and create a model, but definitely worth it. @York Audio if you want I can make a capture of your amp for you so you can easily load it in the plugin and test it, it would be interesting to add that to this comparison. All you need to do is feed this test signal thru your amp, record it and send the recording to me (as wav 48KHz/24bit). Obviously make sure to send it at unity gain to the amp, but I'm sure you know that ;)
 
I'm really happy with ToneX. I think it is very good, and for those who want specific sounds they are intimately familiar with, it's probably a better shout than the Axe III.

But the Axe III is the dogs danglies, especially if you're the kind of person who delves into their gear to the nth degree.
 
The static nature of captures doesn't really bother me - until this week I only had one guitar (a Jazzmaster) for the last couple of years and it doesn't lend itself to 'playing the volume and tone knobs' (though I think I'm finally going to drop down to 500k pots). Once I figure out amp settings they pretty much stay there forever. Tonal variations are generally pedal based - I've got an EAE Surveyor and SS/BS Mini that both have great EQs, Secret Preamp on or off, etc. - or (thanks to the modeling gods) just switching amps entirely.

Even with the AF3, the amps I use I 'know' the EQ settings that work with my guitar and spend my tweaking time with effects and order.
 
I think the QC is a poor representation of 'capture'.
The aliasing is gross and Neural needs to rethink their hardware unit.
Their plugins are fine (and their new NAM product seems to get great reviews)....but the QC - I sold it after trying very hard to like it.
It really bothered my ears.

Have not tried Tonex Pedal, but the plug in is great.
 
I think the QC is a poor representation of 'capture'.
The aliasing is gross and Neural needs to rethink their hardware unit.
Their plugins are fine (and their new NAM product seems to get great reviews)....but the QC - I sold it after trying very hard to like it.
It really bothered my ears.

Have not tried Tonex Pedal, but the plug in is great.

NAM has no association whatsoever to neural dsp, just fyi. He was calling it that long before the QC was announced
 
Late to the party on this one, the sample with the volume rolled off is very interesting indeed! The QC loses a lot of something... input, gain IDK but it is definity different. Even the FAS loses a little bit of something as the cord sustains but it's far better then the QC.
 
NAM has no association whatsoever to neural dsp, just fyi. He was calling it that long before the QC was announced
OH! I assumed Neural Amp Modeler meant it was from Neural DSP. Didn't know it was made by KVR.
All this time I thought it was a NDSP product. Thanks for the clarification.
 
OH! I assumed Neural Amp Modeler meant it was from Neural DSP. Didn't know it was made by KVR.
All this time I thought it was a NDSP product. Thanks for the clarification.
It is open source code (built with Python) - it is initially been built only to capture the amp itself not the whole chain although I think some contributors are trying full rigs.
I have used it and tonally it is good - but the feel for me isn't as good as fractal - I would describe it as the in-between playing is missing something.
I need to try it further but I also prefer hardware as my laptop isn't the fastest.
 
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It is open source code (built with Python) - it is initially been built only to capture the amp itself not the whole change although I think some contributors are trying full rigs.
I have used it and tonally it is good - but the feel for me isn't as good as fractal - I would describe it as the in-between playing is missing something.
I need to try it further but I also prefer hardware as my laptop isn't the fastest.
Got it - i can see now it's just linked from the KVR site to GitHub.
 
I'm really happy with ToneX. I think it is very good, and for those who want specific sounds they are intimately familiar with, it's probably a better shout than the Axe III.

But the Axe III is the dogs danglies, especially if you're the kind of person who delves into their gear to the nth degree.

I've read ToneX is not very good with a power amp and real cab? Any experiences?

Fractal would seem to be way better in that regard, too.
 
I've read ToneX is not very good with a power amp and real cab? Any experiences?

Fractal would seem to be way better in that regard, too.
Just a guess, but the capture would include both the amp's power section and the speaker, so feeding that to another power amp (assuming you mean tube power amp) and another guitar speaker cab would be redundant for both.
 
NOTE: This post isn't meant to speak negatively of anyone's product. It's simply meant to show different attributes found in two types of modeling.



All this talk about amp captures lately has made me curious about a couple things. Even though amps, models, and captures are all supposed to sound the same, Fractal has always had a "feel" that I haven't been able to get out of other modelers. People have said the Quad Cortex models aren't great, but the captures are amazing... so I (literally) dusted off my Quad Cortex and decided to make a capture of my '77 Marshall JMP to see how it stacked up.

Tonally, it's way better than the Kemper, but still has some excited frequencies. Not exactly apples to apples, but more like an apple vs a different kind of apple if that makes sense. It's not bad by any means... just a little different. I remember Cliff saying something a while back about hearing the quality of the modeling by rolling off the guitar's volume knob and comparing it to what a real amp does, so that's what I did.

It seems like captures can "sound" close when the guitar is on 10, but they still don't "feel" close in my opinion, so I played something on my looper pedal with the guitar's volume really low with a swell to 10 at the end and recorded it through my Marshall JMP with the LB-2 load box, the Fractal Brit 800 model with the LB-2 impedance curve, and a QC capture I made of the JMP through the LB-2. Disclaimer... I'm recovering from Covid, so my ears are still plugged up which made it a little tricky to match the Fractal with my amp by ear, but today it isn't about a direct "tone match," it's about what makes a digital recreation "feel" right or not. The capture was not changed or altered in any way, and I even captured it twice to make sure my results were consistent.

I'm going to do this in two parts. Part 1 is "Full Volume" where we hear all three examples with the guitar's volume all the way up. There's similar tonality and gain structure. They aren't identical, but that's what we're listening for here. The capture is a bit of an outlier, but it's still in the ballpark and would probably work well for some players. I notice the chord bloom with the amp and Fractal, but it's much more linear with the QC. This is when things should sound the closest.


Order: Marshall, Fractal, Capture



Part 2 is "Volume Rolloff" where we hear all three examples with the guitar's volume knob rolled off and turned up at the end. This is where the magic happens in my opinion. Even lightly picked with the volume rolled off, you hear this angry volatility in the amp like it can't wait to explode. The Fractal does a great job of replicating it; like you can hear the components in the amp working with and against each other as if it's trying to figure out what going to happen next. When we hear the capture, all of that chaos is gone. It's soft, polite, and doesn't really have any of those swirling elements we hear in the other two. I think this is why models and captures feel so different.


Order: Marshall, Fractal, Capture



All that to say, I think the crazy nonlinear behavior we hear in the Volume Rolloff clip ends up being the stuff that makes a model respond more accurately to our playing and what gives us an authentic playing experience. We may not hear it with our guitars on 10, but we can definitely feel it.

Wow, this experiment with the volume rolled down is revealing. I couldn’t quite articulate why the fractal always felt better than the other modelers, but it’s very clear how the response differs here.
 
Just a guess, but the capture would include both the amp's power section and the speaker, so feeding that to another power amp (assuming you mean tube power amp) and another guitar speaker cab would be redundant for both.

No, I meant solid state, should have clarified. Fractal sounds great with a solid state power amp and cab, whereas apparently ToneX does not, however more user experiences are needed regarding the latter.
 
No, I meant solid state, should have clarified. Fractal sounds great with a solid state power amp and cab, whereas apparently ToneX does not, however more user experiences are needed regarding the latter.

Sounds just fine in my experience so far. It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't, imo. People just need to make sure they're using amp di captures and not 'cab removed' full captures.
 
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