FM9 Scene switching lag time

[∞Fractals]

Scene controllers are not all that difficult if you understand what happens in a scene, and you understand what a modifier does.

I used to build scenes, clean to mean on the same amp just with controllers.

But most music has pauses/rests/gaps, and I’m able to switch scenes without any interruptions to the musicality.

 

[unix-guy]

Hey man,

I am coming from Helix as well. There is no doubt that Fractal has gaps when switching–it is just how it is. Coming from snapshots...it's just not the same. It's something I am learning to deal with, given all the other benefits of the FM9 amps, editor, etc.

As you know, it's all about channel switching. I had a hard time grasping that, I cannot just change the values of on a amp block (bass/treble/mids/gain/etc) between different SCENES–to me that makes so much more sense than having to copy the same amp to the the next channel, and adjust there...I mean, the SCENE is the differentiator, why not just change the values between scenes? I digress.

Scenes only represent block on/off states and channel selection.

 

[Davus PG]

I got my FM9 a couple of weeks ago and hadn't even noticed whether gaps on changes are any different to on the 3.....Are they?

It doesn't matter either way to me, I play in a rock covers band with another guitarist and nobody is ever going to notice a tiny gap in the mix - not even me. For years I used scene controllers and a single amp model to change gain for seamless switching, but more recently I'm preferring to enjoy the many wonderful amps in the box rather than be tied to one for marginal benefit

 

[rijiboy]

Guys my apologies,
short read: I jumped the gun, Helix has same "problem", there is definitely gap/lag between patch switches,

long read: Today I started cleaning out/arranging some patches on my Helix for upcoming show and I tried the switching of patches and there was "no gap", so I created two brand new patches each with multiple amps and effects (basically trying to run out of Helix processing power) and yep there was gap in sound while switching between patches, so I started removing effects/amp-blocks out thinking Helix processor was dying under the load of switching one set of blocks to another and soon found out thats not the issue, in my stage set list, all my tones have some reverb or delay (or both) and in all I have "trails" enabled,(for reference ) that trail was creating spill over from one patch to another fooling my hearing to feel its a seemless switch, I just forgot that I had trails incorporated in my patches

Thank you for everyones help for this issue, I though want to know how can I achieve something like Helix Trails in Fractal?, I will be expermenting with Fractal this weekend as I might have sometime, so I might learn that on my own, but would appreciate if anyone can point me to correct video/article? .... and I will be ok to start new thread for this question if forum rules suggest that

BTW: Headrush first had trails concept, and I used that few times as well I think Helix guys just copied their idea,

Thanks

 

[sick pickle]

Guys my apologies,
short read: I jumped the gun, Helix has same "problem", there is definitely gap/lag between patch switches,

long read: Today I started cleaning out/arranging some patches on my Helix for upcoming show and I tried the switching of patches and there was "no gap", so I created two brand new patches each with multiple amps and effects (basically trying to run out of Helix processing power) and yep there was gap in sound while switching between patches, so I started removing effects/amp-blocks out thinking Helix processor was dying under the load of switching one set of blocks to another and soon found out thats not the issue, in my stage set list, all my tones have some reverb or delay (or both) and in all I have "trails" enabled,(for reference ) that trail was creating spill over from one patch to another fooling my hearing to feel its a seemless switch, I just forgot that I had trails incorporated in my patches

Thank you for everyones help for this issue, I though want to know how can I achieve something like Helix Trails in Fractal?, I will be expermenting with Fractal this weekend as I might have sometime, so I might learn that on my own, but would appreciate if anyone can point me to correct video/article? .... and I will be ok to start new thread for this question if forum rules suggest that

BTW: Headrush first had trails concept, and I used that few times as well I think Helix guys just copied their idea,

Thanks

Switching PRESETS in Helix will cause a gap. Switching various snapshots is 100% gapless and not something Fractal can answer yet, as far as I can tell. Anytime a channel is switched (to load a new amp), you will get that gap when switching. Helix can switch amps via snapshots without any gap.

 

[rijiboy]

MR

Switching PRESETS in Helix will cause a gap. Switching various snapshots is 100% gapless and not something Fractal can answer yet, as far as I can tell. Anytime a channel is switched (to load a new amp), you will get that gap when switching. Helix can switch amps via snapshots without any gap.

Mr @peepeepoopoo you just PeePee-d and PooPoo-ed my observation

Honestly I didnt mess with snapshots in Helix, but since effects trail helps me achieve what I wanted, I think I never needed snapshots

Guess I will have to change my live usage a bit

 

[marshall2553]

Switching PRESETS in Helix will cause a gap. Switching various snapshots is 100% gapless and not something Fractal can answer yet, as far as I can tell. Anytime a channel is switched (to load a new amp), you will get that gap when switching. Helix can switch amps via snapshots without any gap.

I sold my HX Stomp a while back and have only briefly tinkered with a Helix Floor. But isn't one notable difference here that you can't change to a different amp model (or effect type) via snapshots, you can only change parameters of the currently selected model? Whereas with Fractal's implementation of scenes, each channel can load a different amp model, reverb type, OD model etc. And with two amp blocks it is possible to get gapless amp channel switching with scenes.

 

[sick pickle]

I sold my HX Stomp a while back and have only briefly tinkered with a Helix Floor. But isn't one notable difference here that you can't change to a different amp model (or effect type) via snapshots, you can only change parameters of the currently selected model? Whereas with Fractal's implementation of scenes, each channel can load a different amp model, reverb type, OD model etc. And with two amp blocks it is possible to get gapless amp channel switching with scenes.

Put two amp blocks in a helix patch. On snapshot 1 have amp 1 on. On snapshot 2 turn off amp 1 and turn on amp two.

Depending on DSP you could have more amps.

Still prefer fractal overall though.

 

[unix-guy]

Switching PRESETS in Helix will cause a gap. Switching various snapshots is 100% gapless and not something Fractal can answer yet, as far as I can tell. Anytime a channel is switched (to load a new amp), you will get that gap when switching. Helix can switch amps via snapshots without any gap.

The Fractal can do it. It has been explained already on various ways to do it.

It's not the same as Helix because Scenes are not Snapshots. But it is possible to do with 2 Amp blocks and a Multiplexer.

 

[unix-guy]

Thank you for everyones help for this issue, I though want to know how can I achieve something like Helix Trails in Fractal?

Look at the manuals for "Spillover".

 

[GlennO]

Switching various snapshots is 100% gapless and not something Fractal can answer yet, as far as I can tell.

Put two amp blocks in a helix patch. On snapshot 1 have amp 1 on. On snapshot 2 turn off amp 1 and turn on amp two.

Depending on DSP you could have more amps.

Still prefer fractal overall though.

You seem to once again be missing the key point that Helix Snapshots are equivalent to Fractal Scene Controllers. On a slightly different subject, gapless amp switching by using two amps is the same in the Helix as in an FM9. The only difference with respect to gapless amp switching is: the mode the Helix offers that cuts cpu capacity in half. The FM9 does not have that.

 

[marshall2553]

Put two amp blocks in a helix patch. On snapshot 1 have amp 1 on. On snapshot 2 turn off amp 1 and turn on amp two.

Depending on DSP you could have more amps.

Still prefer fractal overall though.

I'm still not seeing how this offers much of an advantage over scenes. On the Axe and FM9 you could have two amp blocks with 8 completely different amp models and have (mostly) gapless scene switching. That's assuming you planned your scene changes to alternate between the two amp blocks. Either way, I think the whole gapless scene/snapshot/preset change thing is over blown. I've never had a real amp that could change channels without some gap, or even worse, an audible pop.

 

[rijiboy]

I think the whole gapless scene/snapshot/preset change thing is over blown. I've never had a real amp that could change channels without some gap, or even worse, an audible pop.

Ummm... I kind of disagree here, technology should be able to provide you with options you cant achieve through physical equipment (aka amps, pedals, etc) its like cloud tech let us experiment with solution that are either impossible or extremely expensive in a physical data center (yes I know my IT background is showing)
So maybe instead of accepting there "should be lag" can we make a feature request to help achieve something that pushes the limits of physical equipment? I would love to experiment jumping from brit clean to US metal to botique to peizo in same song (damn now I have to compose that song)

btw @unix-guy thanks, I watched couple of vids on Multiplexer, I think thats definitely a way to go with two amps, I think that should help me cover my set list with just one preset and 4 scenes (or did I say that wrong again??

 

[marshall2553]

Ummm... I kind of disagree here, technology should be able to provide you with options you cant achieve through physical equipment (aka amps, pedals, etc) its like cloud tech let us experiment with solution that are either impossible or extremely expensive in a physical data center (yes I know my IT background is showing)
So maybe instead of accepting there "should be lag" can we make a feature request to help achieve something that pushes the limits of physical equipment? I would love to experiment jumping from brit clean to US metal to botique to peizo in same song (damn now I have to compose that song)

btw @unix-guy thanks, I watched couple of vids on Multiplexer, I think thats definitely a way to go with two amps, I think that should help me cover my set list with just one preset and 4 scenes (or did I say that wrong again??

LOL, I'm not saying modelers should be constrained by the limitations of the devices they're emulating. Just that very short gaps when switching channels wasn't a big deal before modelers and still isn't today for the majority of guitarists. Maybe it's genre dependent, but I've never needed 100% gapless switching. Neither have some of the gigging guitarists I've talked to. Regardless, Helix and Axe/FM9 can both do gapless amp switching right now if you set your preset up correctly.

 

[chris]

Software is limited by hardware.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Ummm... I kind of disagree here, technology should be able to provide you with options you cant achieve through physical equipment (aka amps, pedals, etc) its like cloud tech let us experiment with solution that are either impossible or extremely expensive in a physical data center (yes I know my IT background is showing)

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

 

[unix-guy]

So maybe instead of accepting there "should be lag" can we make a feature request to help achieve something that pushes the limits of physical equipment?

IMO, we already are pushing the limits.

 

[unix-guy]

I never really had a big issue with the gap from amp channel changes.

Almost all music will have a natural "break" in the rhythm where (with decent timing) you can have a gap that's not audible (because you're changing during a pause).

However, there are cases where it's next to impossible to do it.

In one of my band's original tunes we used to play, I needed to change from a fairly clean tone to a searing lead tone. There was not a big enough break in the timing to handle the gap.

And it would make the solo appear as if I had missed the first note when I was actually playing everything correctly.

So I found another solution. Instead of changing Amp channels I used a second Amp block.

Of course, the problem was self inflicted - I'm the one who wrote the music and solo

 

[rijiboy]

To couple of comments
I was pointing out that software can let us emulate a silly path like following, I didnt test it, but it probably sounds horrible, we can easily achieve this through soft/virtual blocks, it will require considerable effort on a physical setup, and some of those might not even be possible using actual hardware, that is what I meant by "technology should be able to provide you with options you cant achieve through physical equipment"



and yes software is limited by hardware, thats what I am saying, Fractal has best CPU processing compare to all other modellers out there, so a request for a software tweak to address this issue makes even more sense, right? we are not moving blocks just utilizing better memory, L2, L3, CPU management through software programming

... and to probably wrap our discussion on gap/lag, I play in a 3 peice band, drummer, bassist and guitarist, most of our songs are pop covers, and I always make them into a rock version, so I need effects (chorus, phaser, delays, reverbs etc) to provide proper fill while playing clean tones, switching to solo and back to rhythm is in nearly every song we do, even some originals, thats why gapless switching is a big deal for me

 

[unix-guy]

To couple of comments
I was pointing out that software can let us emulate a silly path like following, I didnt test it, but it probably sounds horrible, we can easily achieve this through soft/virtual blocks, it will require considerable effort on a physical setup, and some of those might not even be possible using actual hardware, that is what I meant by "technology should be able to provide you with options you cant achieve through physical equipment"

View attachment 109499

and yes software is limited by hardware, thats what I am saying, Fractal has best CPU processing compare to all other modellers out there, so a request for a software tweak to address this issue makes even more sense, right? we are not moving blocks just utilizing better memory, L2, L3, CPU management through software programming

... and to probably wrap our discussion on gap/lag, I play in a 3 peice band, drummer, bassist and guitarist, most of our songs are pop covers, and I always make them into a rock version, so I need effects (chorus, phaser, delays, reverbs etc) to provide proper fill while playing clean tones, switching to solo and back to rhythm is in nearly every song we do, even some originals, thats why gapless switching is a big deal for me

The point being that the audio gap when changing channels of Amp block is intentional and by design.

This isn't likely going to change. It's been optimized over the years...