FM9 and USB midi questions

jordikt

jordikt

Experienced
FM9 sends midi and receives midi through usb and through 5-pin midi ports.

I understand that any midi message can be sent and received using the 5-pin midi ports, but I don't understand the behaviour of midi over usb in FM9.

What midi messages can be sent to USB to control functions in FM9?

What midi messages can be received from USB to reveal changes/functions in FM9?
 
Here are some links with info:

Fractal Audio Wiki: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=MIDI#Axe-Fx_III_and_FM9

Also, the Fractal Audio manuals are really great. You can download and FM9 manual here: https://www.fractalaudio.com/fm9-downloads/

The manual has information on the FM9 USB and Midi implementation. The Fractal Manuals are much more helpful than the average manual. It is pretty comprehensive and easy to understand.

Most likely, the Wiki or the manual will answer your questions. If these resources don't answer your questions that you might repost with a more precise description of you're trying to do. Send midi preset/scene changes to your FM9 from a laptop? What context do you want to reveal changes/functions? Are attempting to acquire info from the FM9 and display on a computer via FM9? Are you trying to have the FM9 show info on the FM9 screen via a USB midi request? Are trying to automate using something like Gig Performer (or a comparable product)?

I'm no midi expert, so I may not have the knowledge that you seek. But someone around here might have an answer if you can be more specific. And, regardless, the Wiki and Manual are your friend.
 
Hi @jordikt, the original DIN cable MIDI is generally preferable due to the isolation built into the spec. USB is generally an invitation to ground loops. That may or may not be relevant to what you are doing.

As for the protocol, it works over either, and in the case of an FM9, it acts as a USB to DIN MIDI interface. And from page 122...

The FM9 is a USB MIDI Device. It will appear as a MIDI device in a DAW or other MIDI program. You can use automation and other MIDI messages to control the FM9.​

So with that out of the way it's a question of what MIDI does it support. That's almost always in the back of the manual, as is the case with the FM9 in chapters 14 and 15. You will want to refer to the Blocks Guide for additional information on transmitting CC and PC messages. At this time it transmits "System Exclusive - Real time," but otherwise SYSEX is only in there to support the editor. (Edit: And as otherwise outlined in Cliff's third-party guide to midi implementation linked to below.)
 
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This quote from the wiki would seem to confirm that the Axe Fx and FM9 (and not FM3) can generate midi to be sent out over USB (and DIN):

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=MIDI#Axe-Fx_III_and_FM9

iOS devices​

Use a USB-A to USB-B cable, or a wireless MIDI adapter, or the Apple Lightning-to-USB Camera Adapter, to connect the Axe-Fx III or FM9 directly to an iOS device. This lets apps such as BandHelper and Set List Maker send and receive MIDI commands and USB Audio to/from the device without requiring an additional MIDI-to-USB interface (which the Axe-Fx II required)..
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jordikt said:
What midi messages can be sent to USB to control functions in FM9?
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CCs, PCs, sysex (if you know the right ones ;))

jordikt said:
What midi messages can be received from USB to reveal changes/functions in FM9?
Click to expand...
It can generate/send CC and PC messages via Scene Midi block.

It can also send PCs when presets are changed, if enabled.

It can also be queried with sysex and send results back in sysex:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/third-party-midi-spec.140602/

I'd suggest reading both the links I provided.
 
rockstarjazzcat said:
At this time it transmits SYSEX system realtime, but otherwise SYSEX is only in there to support the editor.
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I would say this is incorrect and to my knowledge it has never been correct for FM9. See the Third Party Midi Specification I linked in my previous reply.

Unless maybe you meant directly sending sysex? In that case I agree - you can't make it send sysex from the unit itself - only in response to a sysex command.
 
unix-guy said:
I would say this is incorrect and to my knowledge it has never been correct for FM9. See the Third Party Midi Specification I linked in my previous reply.

Unless maybe you meant directly sending sysex? In that case I agree - you can't make it send sysex from the unit itself - only in response to a sysex command.
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I meant it transmits System Exclusive real time. Where System Real Time is concerned it receives clock for tempo sync'ing purpose only. Either way, it looks like it is referring to editor support only, unless used in the limited subset of other advertised uses.

I definitely need to check out the Third Party MIDI Specification. Thanks for making me aware of it.

(Reading too much MIDI documentation today, sorry. I really just want to be able to send simple SYSEX strings with the Scene MIDI Block, and specifically, the string F0 00 00 07 01 08 10 F7 to my Voodoo Lab gear.)
 
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jordikt said:
FM9 sends midi and receives midi through usb and through 5-pin midi ports.

I understand that any midi message can be sent and received using the 5-pin midi ports, but I don't understand the behaviour of midi over usb in FM9.

What midi messages can be sent to USB to control functions in FM9?
Click to expand...

Everything in the MIDI implementation chart can be transmitted to the Axe-FX over USB.


jordikt said:
What midi messages can be received from USB to reveal changes/functions in FM9?
Click to expand...

AFAIK, nothing in the MIDI implementation chart is transmitted from the Axe-FX over USB, with the exception of a few responses to sysex queries (some of which are documented in the 3rd party midi spec).
 
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Correct. There is no equivalent of MIDI USB Adapter Mode in the current generation units like there was in the Axe II. It allowed the II to act as a full USB MIDI adapter and you could send received MIDI traffic back to the computer over USB. The III and FM9 can receive MIDI data from the computer over USB, but currently cannot send it back to the computer, except for sysex responses to the editors. Self generated MIDI messages like those from CS MIDI and the MIDI block only get sent to the hardware MIDI ports.

If you add a third party USB MIDI adapter, you can do it though.
 
unix-guy said:
That seems to conflict with the wiki quote in my earlier reply:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm9-and-usb-midi-questions.202323/post-2530729

I have never needed to send from Fractal over USB so I haven't tested, and I was thinking it was the same as you posted until I read the quote in the wiki.
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I think you misinterpreted the "receive". To properly interpret it, you have to parse that to mean it receives audio over usb. In any case, the Axe-FX does not transmit midi over usb, with the rare exception I mentioned above.
 
I don't believe that quote is accurate. I've never been able to send CS MIDI or MIDI block messages back to the computer over USB. They are only sent to the hardware MIDI out. Same goes for any MIDI traffic received at the hardware MIDI In port. You can certainly receive MIDI messages from the computer like tempo changes, PC, and CC messages from your DAW. Plenty of folks automate preset changes that way.

On the II I could plug my MIDI keyboard controller in the MIDI In port and control virtual instruments as well as record CC messages from the MFC-101 for recreating wah performances and such. This does not work on the III.

What's ironic is contrary to the quote, the II is the one that did not require a separate MIDI to USB interface. It was built in with USB Adapter mode.
 
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mr_fender said:
What's ironic is contrary to the quote, the II is the one that did not require a separate MIDI to USB interface. It was built in with USB Adapter mode.
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There's a lot of tortured semantics in that quote, but within the context of the stated topic of "IOS devices", it is technically correct. The Axe-FX II is not class-compliant, so you had to use a device between the Axe-FX II and your IOS device. You no longer need that with the Axe-FX III to record to an IOS device, but the implication in that wording that the Axe-FX III will magically start to transmit midi over usb when you connect it to an iPhone is obviously incorrect :).
 
Thank you everybody for all the replies.

I think that @GlennO is correct:
1- Everything in the MIDI implementation chart can be transmitted to the FM9 over USB.
2- Nothing in the MIDI implementation chart is transmitted from the FM9 over USB, with the exception of a few responses to sysex queries.

I have been sending CCs and PCs to USB midi in and 5-pin midi in for tap tempo, tuner, preset change, scene change, external controller, looper functions. The result is that both ports receive correctly all messages and execute correctly any assigned action.

I have also monitored messages received from USB midi out and 5-pin midi out:
Changing presets/scenes from device -> CC/PC received from 5-pin midi + nothing received from USB
Pressing CS from device -> CC/PC received from 5-pin midi + nothing received from USB
Scene Midi block in presets -> CC/PC received from 5-pin midi + nothing received from USB
Actions sending CC/PC -> CC/PC received from 5-pin midi + nothing received from USB

Thanks again!
 
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