Fm3 SD powerstage or FRFR

[AlexMania]

I don't have any experience with the Powercabs. I have seen some other discussions where people didn't dig them, but have always thought they seemed cool. I've used my EVs for home amplification. They are obviously designed for use as a wedge, but as I've said I used them upright in a "cab" type of orientation and they work well.

Hi TheloniusJ,

Clearly YMMV when it comes to the Powercab. I have the 112+ and I absolutely love it. It sounds like a guitar cab when I use the built in 'models'. It just sounds great for the Greenback sound. I would use it as my backline monitor EVERY time except:

1) It's heavy as *#$%.
2) What I hear is not what the audience hears.
3) as a FRFR, It's MEH....

I'm not giving the powercab up despite it's limitations because it does sound / feel really good at home of if I have it in a studio space where it won't move a lot.

Generally:

1) Dislike IR's. Just do. Don't care what the IR says, I need it to sound like I'm standing in front of a guitar amp, sorry,. Don't care about what's on the record. I care about the sound, the feel, and the thump of standing in front of an amp. Again, YMMV and I know nothing (John Snow).

2) I use a Bose mini PA speaker, which sounds ()*$# great as a FRFR platform when gigging. It gives me ALL the advantages that have been mentioned. The Bose just has it, my old JBL did not. Clearly the quality of the FRFR makes a massive difference.

We all look at the same racing form and bet on a different horse. Play with different setups until you find the one that works for you specifically. I hate Bose gear but love the monitor. I love JBL gear but hated the monitor. I thought I'd like the Powercab+ as a FRFR with my own IR's and it sounded like ass. Same IR sounds great through the Bose.

I happily live with such mysteries and stick with what works for me.

 

[MrCrossroads83]

Wondering if anyone has an opinion on spending $1000 on an FRFR or saving some cash and getting a SD power stage 170. I would run the SD into either an Evh cab, a Marshall with a V30, or a Princeton reverb combo. I was thinking i would have more versatility with an FRFR and all the FM3 ir's. I would be using this from in house and small venue's. Any thoughts?

I experienced that the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 and a real guitar cab are a great combination for playing the FM 3 live when you always play a few amp models from the same ballpark (Marshall models, Fender models). In my oppinion you only need a FRFR system when you need flexibitily and play many different styles and tones live (top 40 band for example).
I used the Fractal Audio AX 8 in 2018 with a 1x12 bluesbreaker style cab and amplified it with the Seymour Duncan Powerstage. People thought I play a Marshall tube amplifier

 

[TheloniusJ]

Hi TheloniusJ,

Clearly YMMV when it comes to the Powercab. I have the 112+ and I absolutely love it. It sounds like a guitar cab when I use the built in 'models'. It just sounds great for the Greenback sound. I would use it as my backline monitor EVERY time except:

1) It's heavy as *#$%.
2) What I hear is not what the audience hears.
3) as a FRFR, It's MEH....

I'm not giving the powercab up despite it's limitations because it does sound / feel really good at home of if I have it in a studio space where it won't move a lot.

Generally:

1) Dislike IR's. Just do. Don't care what the IR says, I need it to sound like I'm standing in front of a guitar amp, sorry,. Don't care about what's on the record. I care about the sound, the feel, and the thump of standing in front of an amp. Again, YMMV and I know nothing (John Snow).

2) I use a Bose mini PA speaker, which sounds ()*$# great as a FRFR platform when gigging. It gives me ALL the advantages that have been mentioned. The Bose just has it, my old JBL did not. Clearly the quality of the FRFR makes a massive difference.

We all look at the same racing form and bet on a different horse. Play with different setups until you find the one that works for you specifically. I hate Bose gear but love the monitor. I love JBL gear but hated the monitor. I thought I'd like the Powercab+ as a FRFR with my own IR's and it sounded like ass. Same IR sounds great through the Bose.

I happily live with such mysteries and stick with what works for me.

Your assessment of the Powercab is kind of in line with what I'd heard. I've really loved the idea of it TBH (e.g. the ability to have it emulate various cab types, but still be a "real" cab solution). As such, I'm not surprised it is a "meh" FRFR.

Also interesting to hear about the Bose solution. I recently saw a band playing at a small venue using a Bose solution and it sounded amazing. The guitarist was actually just miking a small Fender practice amp, but it sounded phenomenal.

 

[Rusty Riffs]

Count me as another EV PXM convert. I've always done the FRFR thing with the fusion funk band I play in, but was using and SD into 4x12 with the hard rock band I played in which likes a loud stage. I've now switched to using two EVs with that band also.

Here is a pic from our last show this past Saturday. You can see one of the EVs on the keyboard riser behind me. The other one is right behind me (I give them a little spread even though they are mono in this situation). I stand the EV's on edge to get them mostly vertical which works great (@Greg Ferguson's suggestion). They are clear, really flat and keep together at high volume.

View attachment 123838

BTW: This was an outdoor show and it was in the high 90s even at night. FM3 held up awesome even in the heat.

Hey man. Thinking about buying some of these. Will the crowd hear them if they are pointes up like that? Honest question. It would they be better suited on their sides facing the crowd

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Hey man. Thinking about buying some of these. Will the crowd hear them if they are pointes up like that? Honest question. It would they be better suited on their sides facing the crowd

Whether the crowd can hear them depends on the room size and shape and its acoustics, how noisy the people are and how loud the speakers are.

Mine end up running just under 100dB in a medium sized club, sitting in their default position on the back, and they are pretty easy to hear in the room because the sound bounces off the ceiling. And, I only have them at half volume.

I also send a feed to FOH and he boosts the volume if someone else is on my rig and doesn’t know to turn up the volume on their guitar when they solo (I treat my rig like a single channel amp), but the majority of the volume is still coming from the EVs on stage.

Would they be better suited on their sides? They can definitely be oriented that way, but “better”? That goes back to my first sentence, it’s what you need in the situation.

I even put one on its side and the other on top of it on its back so one fires forward and the other fires upwards so there’s a good amount of my guitar in my spot on stage but it’s not stupid loud.

The important thing with the EVs is that they sound great, and they give us the options of sitting on their back, tipped forward, or on their sides firing directly ahead, and can be really loud. And they’re not crazy heavy or big.

 

[lauke-lux]

If you want to go the guitar speaker way better take a "real" heavy weight rack power Amp that has a good transformer in it capable to stock the energy that will be able to handle the speaker motors. All these small class D amps will never give you that comfort. There's a good FAS thread about that but can't remember where or when that was.

 

[TheloniusJ]

Hey man. Thinking about buying some of these. Will the crowd hear them if they are pointes up like that? Honest question. It would they be better suited on their sides facing the crowd

I find them pretty loud and they stay together at high volume (unlike the Headrush 108s I tried before). When I'm going for loud stage, I prop them up on their back (slightly tilted orientation) pointed towards the crowd rather than wedge orientation (if you look at my current profile picture, you can see one behind me on the keyboard riser).

I also routinely use them in "live room" rehearsals all the time. We have a really loud drummer and the other guitarist is playing a Friedman BE 50 through a 4x12. I am keeping up pretty easily with my Output 2 set at about 50%. If I creep it up to 60% I'll start getting comments about being to loud (and these are all hard rock/heavy metal dudes).

As Greg said, most of the audience volume should be coming from the mains. This is primarily to address the "person standing close between the mains" issue and to give some speaker response to my guitar.

 

[Rusty Riffs]

I find them pretty loud and they stay together at high volume (unlike the Headrush 108s I tried before). When I'm going for loud stage, I prop them up on their back (slightly tilted orientation) pointed towards the crowd rather than wedge orientation (if you look at my current profile picture, you can see one behind me on the keyboard riser).

I also routinely use them in "live room" rehearsals all the time. We have a really loud drummer and the other guitarist is playing a Friedman BE 50 through a 4x12. I am keeping up pretty easily with my Output 2 set at about 50%. If I creep it up to 60% I'll start getting comments about being to loud (and these are all hard rock/heavy metal dudes).

As Greg said, most of the audience volume should be coming from the mains. This is primarily to address the "person standing close between the mains" issue and to give some speaker response to my guitar.

Thanks for the help. I am also in rock band and I miss a little stage rumble as to why I’m looking for some of these. Do they have a convincing cab feel to them?

 

[TheloniusJ]

Thanks for the help. I am also in rock band and I miss a little stage rumble as to why I’m looking for some of these. Do they have a convincing cab feel to them?

This is one thing where the FRFR thing might not be satisfying for you and I think one reason folks can struggle with moving to the full modeling route. Cooper Carter talks a bit about this in this video:

As he discusses, you want to dial in a tone that works well in the larger mix, which usually isn't quite as satisfying as the tone you dial in at home and also the FRFR includes the effect of adding a microphone in the signal chain, which is something you don't hear when you listen directly to the amp coming out of a cab. I've dialed in huge rumbly tones through the FRFRs but they create a ton of mud when I use those in the larger mix. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but when I bought the York Audio Friedman IR pack, I found a few that I liked and then tried them all out with the band. The one I ultimately ended up going with, I don't really think sounds all that awesome by itself. It just sounds really good in the mix.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

also the FRFR includes the effect of adding a microphone in the signal chain

A better way to think of this is that the IR bakes in the sound of the particular mic used to capture the speaker and cab. It has nothing to do with the FRFR, except that the FRFR should be transparently and accurately reproducing the IR’s filtering effect on the modeled amp’s sound.

In other words, the IR is the source of the sound of the close-mic’d speaker. The FRFR is merely the messenger.

This is covered in the FRFR and Impulse Response pages in the Wiki.

 

[cje]

I've been looking at the EVs lately, and was wondering how they worked facing forward, like in Thelonius' photo. Glad to hear they work well like that. I'm thinking about one off these for stage volume, but also as a traditional amp for those smaller bar gigs when there's no PA, or just a vocal PA.

 

[TheloniusJ]

A better way to think of this is that the IR bakes in the sound of the particular mic used to capture the speaker and cab. It has nothing to do with the FRFR, except that the FRFR should be transparently and accurately reproducing the IR’s filtering effect on the modeled amp’s sound.

In other words, the IR is the source of the sound of the close-mic’d speaker. The FRFR is merely the messenger.

This is covered in the FRFR and Impulse Response pages in the Wiki.

Sorry. I misphrased that. I was really talking about the approach of using FRFR for on stage volume (which will involve modeling a cab block via IR), not the FRFR speakers themselves.

Thanks for stating it more clearly.

 

[Hackdog69]

For live use I’m in the guitar cab camp… tried many frfr options.
DV Mark neo 2/12 and PS170 maybe 29 lbs all in
just way prefer the sound live with a band

 

[Sergius9]

Count me as another EV PXM convert. I've always done the FRFR thing with the fusion funk band I play in, but was using and SD into 4x12 with the hard rock band I played in which likes a loud stage. I've now switched to using two EVs with that band also.

Here is a pic from our last show this past Saturday. You can see one of the EVs on the keyboard riser behind me. The other one is right behind me (I give them a little spread even though they are mono in this situation). I stand the EV's on edge to get them mostly vertical which works great (@Greg Ferguson's suggestion). They are clear, really flat and keep together at high volume.

View attachment 123838

BTW: This was an outdoor show and it was in the high 90s even at night. FM3 held up awesome even in the heat.

It's cool that you can stand them on edge like that!

 

[Mutha Goose]

2) I use a Bose mini PA speaker, which sounds ()*$# great as a FRFR platform when gigging. It gives me ALL the advantages that have been mentioned. The Bose just has it, my old JBL did not. Clearly the quality of the FRFR makes a massive difference.

A little "insider" info: the Bose S1 Pro Plus's FRFR filter was specifically designed for use with Fractal. I was the lead engineer and architect for this product and I play the Axe III and a AX8, so this was a priority for me.

 

[TheloniusJ]

A little "insider" info: the Bose S1 Pro Plus's FRFR filter was specifically designed for use with Fractal. I was the lead engineer and architect for this product and I play the Axe III and a AX8, so this was a priority for me.

Interesting.

 

[Mutha Goose]

 

[Rusty Riffs]

So....... I bit the bullet and bought some of the EV PXM 12's. Strictly because they seem to be well reviewed and I like their footprint, weight and all that. I must say that I couldn't be happier. Someone on the thread said something to the effect of why would you spend good coin on a nice modeler and then pump the sound through crap speakers? You "usually" get what you pay for. Anyway these sound great quiet and even better cranked!. They hold up like nothing Ive used before. I had a pair of the coveted CLR's and thought they sounded horrible at high volume. There was a nasty high end I could never seem to dial out. At the end of the day, if you feel like you sound good you will play better right? Im pretty good at this point making my own patches and they represent my creation perfectly. They are plenty loud for a gig environment as I am always running through a PA anyway. To be sure that I am not just in the honeymoon phase, I plugged into my trusty analog head and cab. For the first time ever, I felt it to be kinda harsh and lack luster. If you are on the fence like I was, just grab some of these and thank me later. For all the help from the forum, thank you as always!!

Rusty

 

[stephanfm3]

just getting into this topic.
are the EV PXM 12 FRFRs?
thomann page says nothing about this.
thanks!

 

[unix-guy]

just getting into this topic.
are the EV PXM 12 FRFRs?
thomann page says nothing about this.
thanks!

In a short reply, yes.

Longer: There's nothing "official" about the term FRFR. It's an acronym - Full Range, Flat Response.

The EVs are full range (or close enough - I think the low end is only 49Hz not 20Hz), coaxial design (an important element, IMO) with a pretty flat response and built-in DSP that offers additional ability to make it flatter.