Fm3 SD powerstage or FRFR

M

mikec9971

New Member
Wondering if anyone has an opinion on spending $1000 on an FRFR or saving some cash and getting a SD power stage 170. I would run the SD into either an Evh cab, a Marshall with a V30, or a Princeton reverb combo. I was thinking i would have more versatility with an FRFR and all the FM3 ir's. I would be using this from in house and small venue's. Any thoughts?
 
Those are 2 very different approaches. The FRFR is much more versatile, but also reproduces the sound of a mic'd speaker in isolation whereas an actual guitar cab is will be more what you're probably used to... But not so versatile.

Also, if you're able to connect to FOH for the venues you play, the FRFR will be much closer to what the audience hears out front.

I started with an power amp and my existing 2x12 guitar cabinet back in the day and it worked fine, but I much prefer FRFR.
 
unix-guy said:
Those are 2 very different approaches. The FRFR is much more versatile, but also reproduces the sound of a mic'd speaker in isolation whereas an actual guitar cab is will be more what you're probably used to... But not so versatile.

Also, if you're able to connect to FOH for the venues you play, the FRFR will be much closer to what the audience hears out front.

I started with a power amp and my existing 2x12 guitar cabinet back in the day and it worked fine, but I much prefer FRFR.
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For flexibility, accuracy, and overall convenience, I prefer the modeler and the FRFR also.
 
I prefer FRFR now but for awhile I hated it. Mostly because I bought a budget speaker plus FRFR is weird coming from amps and cabs. The big downside of cabs is you’re stuck with the cab. But if you like the sound of your cabs then it’s all good. For instance, I’m using IR’s for the variety but almost all my presets are using the same 2 IR’s. But if I’m chasing an oddball tone then the right IR is all the difference. Like right now I have to learn some Elvis and Orbison stuff to play with some old Rockabilly guys. Not really my thing but I’ll be able to nail those tones, just not with my regular IR’s.

One thing you might consider is to install a full range speaker like the Celestion F12-X200 into your V30 cab. And get a Powerstage. I picked up a used Crown amp and ran a F12 in an open back 112 cab. Loved it. Far better than the Headrush112 I started with. Then I built a spec cab with the port and correct volume and it is good yes but not really any better than the open back. Just my experience with the F12.
 
skolacki said:
I prefer FRFR now but for awhile I hated it. Mostly because I bought a budget speaker plus FRFR is weird coming from amps and cabs. The big downside of cabs is you’re stuck with the cab. But if you like the sound of your cabs then it’s all good. For instance, I’m using IR’s for the variety but almost all my presets are using the same 2 IR’s. But if I’m chasing an oddball tone then the right IR is all the difference. Like right now I have to learn some Elvis and Orbison stuff to play with some old Rockabilly guys. Not really my thing but I’ll be able to nail those tones, just not with my regular IR’s.

One thing you might consider is to install a full range speaker like the Celestion F12-X200 into your V30 cab. And get a Powerstage. I picked up a used Crown amp and ran a F12 in an open back 112 cab. Loved it. Far better than the Headrush112 I started with. Then I built a spec cab with the port and correct volume and it is good yes but not really any better than the open back. Just my experience with the F12.
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Thanks. The F12-X200 is a good idea. I thought about building a ported cab but might see how my 1x12 Marshall cab sounds before going that route.
 
I have played with both options and have had good results, but recently I decided going full FRFR is definitely the way to go, assuming the FRFR is good quality.

For context, I started my FM3 journey with a pair of Headrush 108s, then bought a PS200 with a borrowed 4x12, then finally bought a pair of EV PXM-12MPs.

Here are my reflections on the three set-ups:
  • The HR 108s are fine for home jamming to move some air. However, they really color the tone and will mess you up if you dial your tones in with these (since they aren't truly flat, your tone will not sound the same through FOH). In a live band situation with another guitarist, they got lost in the mix. I tried the EQ fix you can find on this forum. It helped but still wasn't cutting it.
  • The PS200 with real cab made a huge difference in the live band scenario. Worlds better than the 108s. The PS200 puts out a lot of power and is transparent. Since I still wanted to run a FOH with cab simulation, I had to build my presets with split outputs (Output two has no cab block).
  • The PXMs are truly amazing. Definitely provides plenty of volume for even loud band scenarios and they are quite flat. Tones I dial with these at volume translates perfectly to most FOH systems. I have now decided that I get the best performance with my FM3 with this set-up (to my ears it sounds way better than the PS200 and cab).

General reflections:

  • The more you mess around with IRs the more you will realize how much of your tone comes from the cab block (which also emulates microphones and placement). As such, if you go with the PowerStage, you will end up really having to get the cab right since that is going to have a huge impact on your sound. I could imagine having to spend a lot of time and money finding the right cab as opposed to just trying out options from the massive library IRs provided with the FM3. Even if buying bundles, they are relatively inexpensive.
  • If you plan to play live with FOH, going the FRFR route is worlds better. The chances are that with the PowerStage you'll dial in your tone based on how that sounds and it will not translate well to FOH without a lot of work.
    • I just did a live show and this became painfully obvious with our other guitarist. He has a traditional rig that sounds massive and cuts in the rehearsal space. It sounded anaemic and got lost in the mix when the sound guy miked it up. My sound on the other hand was exactly like it is in rehearsals because I'm dialed with good FRFRs.
  • Flexibility, if you go the power amp and real cab route you are kind of stuck with that set up. This is related to the first point, but allows you to try multiple options in a given session.
    • On this note, it really is worth playing with various options in your live scenarios. I ended up buying the York audio Friedman 4x12 bundle and tried a few options at rehearsals. The one I ended up selecting for live performance was not the one I selected playing in a solo context. It just worked so much better with the band mix.
    • Similarly, I play in two bands which are quite different, it is so much better to just bring the same rig regardless of the scenario. I can change the cab tone through the IRs and not have to worry about maybe bringing a different cab for each gig.
  • Spend the money for good FRFR. If I could do it all over, I would have skipped the experiment with the Headrush and the PS200 and just gone right to a good FRFR. If you've made the decision to go the modeling route, my thought is to just go all the way and get a good quality FRFR (or a pair if you like stereo or wet/dry setups).
 
TheloniusJ said:
I have played with both options and have had good results, but recently I decided going full FRFR is definitely the way to go, assuming the FRFR is good quality.

For context, I started my FM3 journey with a pair of Headrush 108s, then bought a PS200 with a borrowed 4x12, then finally bought a pair of EV PXM-12MPs.

Here are my reflections on the three set-ups:
  • The HR 108s are fine for home jamming to move some air. However, they really color the tone and will mess you up if you dial your tones in with these (since they aren't truly flat, your tone will not sound the same through FOH). In a live band situation with another guitarist, they got lost in the mix. I tried the EQ fix you can find on this forum. It helped but still wasn't cutting it.
  • The PS200 with real cab made a huge difference in the live band scenario. Worlds better than the 108s. The PS200 puts out a lot of power and is transparent. Since I still wanted to run a FOH with cab simulation, I had to build my presets with split outputs (Output two has no cab block).
  • The PXMs are truly amazing. Definitely provides plenty of volume for even loud band scenarios and they are quite flat. Tones I dial with these at volume translates perfectly to most FOH systems. I have now decided that I get the best performance with my FM3 with this set-up (to my ears it sounds way better than the PS200 and cab).

General reflections:

  • The more you mess around with IRs the more you will realize how much of your tone comes from the cab block (which also emulates microphones and placement). As such, if you go with the PowerStage, you will end up really having to get the cab right since that is going to have a huge impact on your sound. I could imagine having to spend a lot of time and money finding the right cab as opposed to just trying out options from the massive library IRs provided with the FM3. Even if buying bundles, they are relatively inexpensive.
  • If you plan to play live with FOH, going the FRFR route is worlds better. The chances are that with the PowerStage you'll dial in your tone based on how that sounds and it will not translate well to FOH without a lot of work.
    • I just did a live show and this became painfully obvious with our other guitarist. He has a traditional rig that sounds massive and cuts in the rehearsal space. It sounded anaemic and got lost in the mix when the sound guy miked it up. My sound on the other hand was exactly like it is in rehearsals because I'm dialed with good FRFRs.
  • Flexibility, if you go the power amp and real cab route you are kind of stuck with that set up. This is related to the first point, but allows you to try multiple options in a given session.
    • On this note, it really is worth playing with various options in your live scenarios. I ended up buying the York audio Friedman 4x12 bundle and tried a few options at rehearsals. The one I ended up selecting for live performance was not the one I selected playing in a solo context. It just worked so much better with the band mix.
    • Similarly, I play in two bands which are quite different, it is so much better to just bring the same rig regardless of the scenario. I can change the cab tone through the IRs and not have to worry about maybe bringing a different cab for each gig.
  • Spend the money for good FRFR. If I could do it all over, I would have skipped the experiment with the Headrush and the PS200 and just gone right to a good FRFR. If you've made the decision to go the modeling route, my thought is to just go all the way and get a good quality FRFR (or a pair if you like stereo or wet/dry setups).
Click to expand...
Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response! I really appreciate it.
 
unix-guy said:
Those are 2 very different approaches. The FRFR is much more versatile, but also reproduces the sound of a mic'd speaker in isolation whereas an actual guitar cab is will be more what you're probably used to... But not so versatile.

Also, if you're able to connect to FOH for the venues you play, the FRFR will be much closer to what the audience hears out front.

I started with an power amp and my existing 2x12 guitar cabinet back in the day and it worked fine, but I much prefer FRFR.
Click to expand...
What FRFR do you use?
 
I'm still new to Fractal but I've never been able to really love an FRFR. I enjoy them playing at home through my studio monitors but when it comes time for a band I prefer the poweramp and guitar cab. But I don't play that many gigs and a lot are places where the amps aren't even mic'd. However at home, sometimes there's nothing like turning on a power amp and real cab and letting it rip. But I've got Fender style speakers and I'm running Fender style models so it works well. I'm sure I'm losing out on a bunch but I'm really only after one sound I can color with pedals.
 
I 100% enjoy using real cabs with a power amp over FRFR and have since sold my CLR and headrush.

Going against the grain of conventional wisdom even further, I do NOT disable cab simulation.

Running an IR into a 2x12 GB loaded cab, using a clean power amp shouldn’t sound good, but to me it’s sound ideal.

Bypass the cab sim and the guitar speaker cab is a bit too bright and harsh. Basically like a guitar cabinet sounds opposed to hearing the sonic shaping the mic type and position applies. However that same directional nature, large amount of air moving et al, from the guitar cab sounds and feels different than a frfr/monitor.

It adds more color, bit more edge, oversized cabinet “knock”, it’s like the best of both worlds.

Ideal mic’d greenback tone playing through a real cab with greenback. Twice as good lol

If you have a power amp with some eq to can dial in the highs and lows a little more if needed, but I totally like cab sims on in most cases, except for some clean patches where sometimes the cab sound alone has a unique quality, and with the IR/cab sim it’s different, not always worse per say, but just two different voicing.


Other nice thing is you can get a loaded cab and small power amp for a lot less than most equivalent FRFR

I got a oversized 2x12 GB loaded solid bitch ply cab for $200 on Marketplace. Look at the price of the Laney 2x12 frfr, it’s like $1200

Even just going into the return off a tube combo can sound really good

I was 100% FRFR for like a decade but now I can’t/don’t want to go back to it ever again
 
Seems these are very Favoured & Loved here on FAS Forum
Before it used to be Atomic CLR, and or Matrix Amp and Cabs
Now this seems to be all the rage

Electro-Voice PXM-12MP 12" Powered Coaxial Monitor ​

 
Count me as another EV PXM convert. I've always done the FRFR thing with the fusion funk band I play in, but was using and SD into 4x12 with the hard rock band I played in which likes a loud stage. I've now switched to using two EVs with that band also.

Here is a pic from our last show this past Saturday. You can see one of the EVs on the keyboard riser behind me. The other one is right behind me (I give them a little spread even though they are mono in this situation). I stand the EV's on edge to get them mostly vertical which works great (@Greg Ferguson's suggestion). They are clear, really flat and keep together at high volume.

1689961182881.png

BTW: This was an outdoor show and it was in the high 90s even at night. FM3 held up awesome even in the heat.
 
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TheloniusJ said:
Count me as another EV PXM convert. I've always done the FRFR thing with the fusion funk band I play in, but was using and SD into 4x12 with the hard rock band I played in which likes a loud stage. I've now switched to using two EVs with that band also.

Here is a pic from our last show this past Saturday. You can see one of the EVs on the keyboard riser behind me. The other one is right behind me (I give them a little spread even though they are mono in this situation). I stand the EV's on edge to get them mostly vertical which works great (@Greg Ferguson's suggestion). They are clear, really flat and keep together at high volume.

View attachment 123838

BTW: This was an outdoor show and it was in the high 90s even at night. FM3 held up awesome even in the heat.
Click to expand...
Is the EV more suited for Live performance use or also good for small room/studio use
Currently using 2 Line6 Powercabs which are really nice wonder how much better these would be?
Both are 12Inch Co-Axial and in wood cabinets difference is the EV has DSP functions
it also has 90° x 90° coverage pattern which i would imagine is really best for Stage use
 
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Stonetone said:
Is the EV more suited for Live performance use or also good for small room/studio use
Currently using 2 Line6 Powercabs which are really nice wonder how much better these would be
Both are 12Inch Co-Axial and in wood cabinets difference is the EV has DSP functions
it also has 90° x 90° coverage pattern which i would imagine is really best for Stage use
Click to expand...
I don't have any experience with the Powercabs. I have seen some other discussions where people didn't dig them, but have always thought they seemed cool. I've used my EVs for home amplification. They are obviously designed for use as a wedge, but as I've said I used them upright in a "cab" type of orientation and they work well.
 
TheloniusJ said:
I don't have any experience with the Powercabs. I have seen some other discussions where people didn't dig them, but have always thought they seemed cool. I've used my EVs for home amplification. They are obviously designed for use as a wedge, but as I've said I used them upright in a "cab" type of orientation and they work well.
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Ahh good to Know both of mine are corner placed and I angle them up to get a sweet spot where i sit and play I was looking at the design of the EV and yes with a Little lift in the back it could also work

Hmm interesting

Thanks for the Input
 
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