FM3 into a Tube Amp (input or effects return/power amp in) ??

S

srussell58

New Member
Hello FM3'ers
Just got my FM3 and its great! Jumping from a FX8 so a bit of a learning curve. I was thinking about using it live with Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III. I am not a fan of FRFR's. The manual recommends using the effects return/ power amp in and disabling the power amp and speaker modeling. Just wondering if anyone does this and how it sounds? I was also considering just using the FM3 as a effects processor and not use an amp or cab sim. Just looking for some advice from more experienced users, thanks in advance! Steve
 
It works fine and I've tried it with different tube combos. It doesn't work as well as a high quality FRFR IMO, which I've used as part of my live rig for years. You may have a different opinion.
 
One thing that would help in offering suggestions would be knowing how you're using the amp on stage. Are you mic'ing the amp? Using it as a stage monitor? Using the amp on its own for the venue's mix?

Some have had good luck using amps effects loops or power amp in, but I've had better success going into the input/front of amps. I had a Hot Rod Deluxe with a Line6 XT Live, mic'ing the amp for both FOH and in-ear monitoring and it sounded better when connected to the input. Sold the HRD prior to owning any FAS gear so I can't comment on which would have sounded better with the FM3.

Play with the amps tone controls and don't be afraid to use extreme settings. One amp I've used needs the Treble control turned down to 1 to get the tones I want. One thing to keep in mind is no matter which method or Fractal amp model you use, the HRD will have an impact on the tone. Whether you like it or not is something only you can decide.

In my experience, some of the Fractal amp models sound better with the Power Amp sim on going into an amp so experiment with different settings to get the tones you want. There could be cases where having the Cab modeling on will provide the tones you need as well. There are suggestions and great starting points in the manual but there are no hard and fast rules of what should be done. Play around with different configurations and decide which you prefer.

I haven't used Fractal amp modeling with amps for several years now, going direct into studio monitors or FOH live. Going direct has been the best decision I've made when it comes to tones and performing live. After years of doing this I've learned to hear my guitar tones as a sound, like hearing them on a recording. I don't miss the "amp in the room".
 
RLD said:
It works fine and I've tried it with different tube combos. It doesn't work as well as a high quality FRFR IMO, which I've used as part of my live rig for years. You may have a different opinion.
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RLD, thanks for the response, I guess I should try a high quality FRFR, I have only used the Headrush FR 108 with my Headrush Gig board and just couldn't get a decent sound. I have a gig coming up end of May so I may try the FM3 with my tube amp. Regards
 
JoKeR III said:
One thing that would help in offering suggestions would be knowing how you're using the amp on stage. Are you mic'ing the amp? Using it as a stage monitor? Using the amp on its own for the venue's mix?

Some have had good luck using amps effects loops or power amp in, but I've had better success going into the input/front of amps. I had a Hot Rod Deluxe with a Line6 XT Live, mic'ing the amp for both FOH and in-ear monitoring and it sounded better when connected to the input. Sold the HRD prior to owning any FAS gear so I can't comment on which would have sounded better with the FM3.

Play with the amps tone controls and don't be afraid to use extreme settings. One amp I've used needs the Treble control turned down to 1 to get the tones I want. One thing to keep in mind is no matter which method or Fractal amp model you use, the HRD will have an impact on the tone. Whether you like it or not is something only you can decide.

In my experience, some of the Fractal amp models sound better with the Power Amp sim on going into an amp so experiment with different settings to get the tones you want. There could be cases where having the Cab modeling on will provide the tones you need as well. There are suggestions and great starting points in the manual but there are no hard and fast rules of what should be done. Play around with different configurations and decide which you prefer.

I haven't used Fractal amp modeling with amps for several years now, going direct into studio monitors or FOH live. Going direct has been the best decision I've made when it comes to tones and performing live. After years of doing this I've learned to hear my guitar tones as a sound, like hearing them on a recording. I don't miss the "amp in the room".
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Joker
Thank you for detailed response, I guess your message here is I need to try it in different configurations with my HRD, which I will need to set aside the time to do.
 
I've done this many times, works great. Definitely worth trying out all the different options. If you like the tone of your amp as is, the FM3 is a great all in one FX solutions. Going direct is also an excellent choice, depending on the types of venues you are playing. For smaller venues or bar gigs I found that bringing an amp and just running the FM3 through the FX Return gave me the best results. And using the setlist feature I was able to basically get it to a point where I'm just pressing one button all night long to cycle through!
 
srussell58 said:
I should try a high quality FRFR, I have only used the Headrush FR 108
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That wouldn't be a very good representation of what a high-quality FRFR sounds like. At the very least, take the FM3 to a big music store, and wander into the P.A./recording section and explain your past experience, and that you'd like to try some good quality speakers and floor monitors that are truly capable of Full-Range/Flat-Response. I'd recommend working only with factory presets at that time, turned up pretty loud, because the factory presets are EQd to sound good at stage volume. A lot of us use the Electro Voice PXM-12MP floor monitors, which are pretty common, and one of them is plenty loud on stage for most people's needs.

It's intimidating to do that, so you might want to call ahead and talk to the store, or department, manager and 'splain that you'd like to know what time would be the least likely to be interrupted or to cause a disruption. If they know you're serious about finding a solution stores are pretty happy to help arrange some audition time.
 
joshua_rivera said:
I've done this many times, works great. Definitely worth trying out all the different options. If you like the tone of your amp as is, the FM3 is a great all in one FX solutions. Going direct is also an excellent choice, depending on the types of venues you are playing. For smaller venues or bar gigs I found that bringing an amp and just running the FM3 through the FX Return gave me the best results. And using the setlist feature I was able to basically get it to a point where I'm just pressing one button all night long to cycle through!
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Thank Joshua, I am thinking that will be my first option, I am playing small venues now but my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe is quite loud I do want to keep it simple, so will consider your idea!
 
Greg Ferguson said:
That wouldn't be a very good representation of what a high-quality FRFR sounds like. At the very least, take the FM3 to a big music store, and wander into the P.A./recording section and explain your past experience, and that you'd like to try some good quality speakers and floor monitors that are truly capable of Full-Range/Flat-Response. I'd recommend working only with factory presets at that time, turned up pretty loud, because the factory presets are EQd to sound good at stage volume. A lot of us use the Electro Voice PXM-12MP floor monitors, which are pretty common, and one of them is plenty loud on stage for most people's needs.

It's intimidating to do that, so you might want to call ahead and talk to the store, or department, manager and 'splain that you'd like to know what time would be the least likely to be interrupted or to cause a disruption. If they know you're serious about finding a solution stores are pretty happy to help arrange some audition time.
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Greg , thanks for the response and that definitely seems like a good plan!
 
The main way I use my FM3 is into the FX return of a Marshall JCM900 with the power amp modeling turned off. I've used the same setup into a PRS, Peavey 6505+, and other Marshalls. Always sounds great. However, I've also used the FM3 direct into the sound system with power amp modeling and doing the A.I.R. (Amp In The Room) setup instead of using an IR. I just haven't found an IR I really like yet and it takes a lot of time to go through the thousands of IRs that are available.

Highly recommend using the amp modeling in the FM3 and not just using it for effects, although the effects are top notch. But so is the amp modeling.
 
Joel.Brown333 said:
The main way I use my FM3 is into the FX return of a Marshall JCM900 with the power amp modeling turned off. I've used the same setup into a PRS, Peavey 6505+, and other Marshalls. Always sounds great. However, I've also used the FM3 direct into the sound system with power amp modeling and doing the A.I.R. (Amp In The Room) setup instead of using an IR. I just haven't found an IR I really like yet and it takes a lot of time to go through the thousands of IRs that are available.

Highly recommend using the amp modeling in the FM3 and not just using it for effects, although the effects are top notch. But so is the amp modeling.
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Joel, thank you for the input I did some experimenting last night with a Quilter Aviator Solid State amp and a Fender Hot Rod Deville and did not have the results I was hoping for, but will continue to test.
 
Going through a solid state amp you will definitely need power amp modeling on. You may also need it for going through a very clean tube amp like the Hot Rod Deville. The tube power amps I play through are all hot tube power amps and usually going through similar speaker cabs.

Nothing will work through everything with the same settings. Meaning you can't go from a solid-state amp, super clean tube power amp, hot high gain power amp, and who knows what for speaker on each of them and have a great sound without some tweaking. Pick a type of amp and cab and it'll be really good everytime.
 
I was able to do some testing last night with two amps a Quilter Aviator solid state head and cab, (effects return and also tried the guitar input on front) and also with a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe ( power amp in and front input). In the end I have more work and testing to do, I used a humbuster cable out of output two and the sound on the inputs of both amps was very trebly and brittle sounding. I tried turning off power amp modeling, cab modeling, using a filter etc, and it didn't really make much of a difference, maybe a little louder and trebly when I turned the cab off. When I went into the effects return and power amp in on the amps, the sound was better but still not as good as what I was hearing in my headphones and studio monitors when I came out Output 1. I also tried turning things off and on (cabs, power amp modeling, using a filter etc) off and on, and it didn't really make a difference. I adjusted the filter to like 80hz on low and 6000hz on high end and again nothing really noticable. If I EQ the amps I used too much it will affect the sound I am getting out of Output 1 which I like. I was thinking of using a graphic EQ and trying to set that to filter out the frequencies that are causing that brittle treble sound I hear and only use it in output 2. Again, I am a novice, and I am watching video's, using the inputs I got here, and using the manual but not having the outcome I would like. I will continue to test today and will try one of my Yamaha DBR 10 speakers just to see how that will sound. I forgot to mention, I did go into the input section of the Fm3 and tried different combinations (sum L-R, copy Output 1 etc) and that didn't really change the sound much.
 
Imo, in order to make progress on these type questions, factors in addition to real amp used and status of Axfx p.a./cab modelling on or off, need to be made clear when describing or evaluating a given test scenario:
  • the specific amp model being used in Axfx.
  • the real cab being used (ie: 112 Cel v30 closed back, 212 Cel Blue Open Back, FR Cab, Studio monitor...)
  • whether or not a mic is being used on the real cab and which mic.
  • if cab modelling is on, the IR is used.
  • what the reference / target sound is. (statements of what sounds good or not good are meaningless imo without clarity on what the specific target reference sound is). A good descriptive reference tone might be a clip or link to another isolated guitar sound that one is going for.
  • accurate description of the sound you are getting in a given test (if a clip can't be provided, relating with accuracy requires careful choice of words - reference examples are good (ie: "I want to sound Hendrixy, but it's ending up Trowery").
  • info on how hard the power amp is being driven in a test when going into a real fx rtn. (Many reference tones include the character of an amp's power section driven to to a certain degree and are not necessarily replicatable at other volume levels (other degrees of "push") thru a similar (or even the same) real amp's fx return (unlike in the modelling / FR world, where a model's power section can be pushed to any degree (and output at any volume via FR). Judging amount of power amp "push" in a real amp by percieved loudness may not be an accurate methodilogy to replicate a reference tone given that different amps vary in loudness at different levels of power amp push (ie a dimed Deluxe power section may be the same loudness as a Twin at 40%)).
  • what guitar and pickups are being used.
  • what room factors are present in the test and what room factors are present in the stated reference tone.
The more clarity there is on these type factors (+ others I've probably forgotten), the more progress becomes possible in these type threads.

Also, it's important imo to only vary a few (I prefer only 1 with my limited brain/ear power) factors at a time in order to have a chance at being able to discern what adjustments are having what affect in terms of either moving closer to, or drifting farther from, the target tone.

Takes some focused effort, but, imo, pairing modelling and real amps/cabs to chase specific sounds, needs a rigorous approach compared to staying 100% within the modelling/FR rhealm where, imo, its somewhat easier given a more controlled environment with more detailed parameter status info available to guide the process.
 
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srussell58 said:
I was thinking of using a graphic EQ and trying to set that to filter out the frequencies that are causing that brittle treble sound I hear and only use it in output 2.
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Each output has its own built in EQ. That gives you a more elegant way to do this.
 
Joel.Brown333 said:
However, I've also used the FM3 direct into the sound system with power amp modeling and doing the A.I.R. (Amp In The Room) setup instead of using an IR.
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Can you expand on this? You’re saying you go into a “sound system” (FRFR, I take it?) with no IR?? What??

I’m not even being facetious. I’m just flabbergasted at this. I have been wanting to “amp in the room” my modeler forever, and if I’m missing something here… well, explain yourself! lol

I’ve had mediocre success that didn’t feel great with various solids state/ tube amp returns, and canned and just play through 10” monitors now. It’s OK, but it’s not an amp, still.

I’ve been looking for a tube amp again… something I can enjoy whether or not my FM3 can transform it into my dream amp. I’ve about given up on that. I should have never sold my triple rectifier, but funny… I also won’t sell my fractal modeler to get it back in spite of the lost inspiration without a real amp to experience and just play. I can’t stop chasing just a normal amp sound that I cannot attain.

I thought playing my axe fx through it proved that I didn’t need it. Never occurred to me the power amp in the recto was just that good.
 
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a bit off topic, but i've recently got the Duncan Powerstage 200, and OMG!, the FM3 into PS200 into any 112, 212 or 412 sounds awesome:)
 
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