FM3 Input Level .... Tickling the Red .... how much ?

[ben ifin]

Hi all !

Quick question re: FM3 Input Level " Tickling the Red ".

(a) if I run the Pad at 6db ..... it never ever hits the Red regardless of how hard I play.

(b) if I run the Pad at 0db ..... it Flash's Red whenever I hit or chug hard but never stays on the Red permanently.

What would be considered "the best" way to set it (?) (a) -or- (b) (?)

Many thanks,
Ben

 

[scottp]

Is (b) with your only or loudest guitar?

 

[mr_fender]

Tickle the Red is a vague method. I don't recall if the on-screen input clipping indicator was ever added to the FM3, but if it hasn't, the more accurate way to check is to record a DI track via USB and zoom way in on the waveform and look for clipped peaks. Adjust the pad and repeat until you don't see any more clipped peaks when playing hard with your highest output guitar.

 

[fcs101]

I'm confused by your "a" and "b". Should "a" be -6 db? It's not making sense to me.

There is no right answer to your question. I prefer to "tickle" the red, as this gives me a great reference for volume leveling.

From the OM in the preset leveling section:

"Play chords and “chugs” as their bassy content may push the meters harder. It’s okay to push “into the red” when you do this."

mr_fender is correct that this method is vague, but just using my ears I agree with the manual there is no harm in it (and it's much faster).

 

[unix-guy]

Tickle the Red is a vague method. I don't recall if the on-screen input clipping indicator was ever added to the FM3, but if it hasn't, the more accurate way to check is to record a DI track via USB and zoom way in on the waveform and look for clipped peaks. Adjust the pad and repeat until you don't see any more clipped peaks when playing hard with your highest output guitar.

I checked the release notes and didn't find it...

 

[unix-guy]

I'm confused by your "a" and "b". Should "a" be -6 db? It's not making sense to me.

There is no right answer to your question. I prefer to "tickle" the red, as this gives me a great reference for volume leveling.

From the OM in the preset leveling section:

"Play chords and “chugs” as their bassy content may push the meters harder. It’s okay to push “into the red” when you do this."

mr_fender is correct that this method is vague, but just using my ears I agree with the manual there is no harm in it (and it's much faster).

No, padding 6dB means lowering it by 6dB.

See page 102 of the manual.

I would suggest using the 6dB option, but @mr_fender provided the best way to really know.

Also, there is a right answer: don't actually clip

 

[ben ifin]

Yeah this whole "tickling the red" is very vague ...... I think I'm going to leave it at 6db that way its never an issue.

I was only interested as Page #7 of the manual reads:-

" .... The possible values are 0dB, 6dB, 12dB, and 18dB. Be aware that as you increase this setting you also increase the noise floor, so set it as close to 0 as possible for the best signal-to-noise ratio. Input Pad adjustments do not affect gain levels or what you hear. As you pad the input of the A/D converter, the output is boosted by the same amount. This eliminates clipping but ensures unity gain .... "

Ben

 

[chris]

Hi all !

Quick question re: FM3 Input Level " Tickling the Red ".

(a) if I run the Pad at 6db ..... it never ever hits the Red regardless of how hard I play.

(b) if I run the Pad at 0db ..... it Flash's Red whenever I hit or chug hard but never stays on the Red permanently.

What would be considered "the best" way to set it (?) (a) -or- (b) (?)

Many thanks,
Ben

B sounds like the setting you want. flashing red only when hitting hardest is tickling.

 

[fcs101]

No, padding 6dB means lowering it by 6dB.

See page 108 of the manual.

I would suggest using the 6dB option, but @mr_fender provided the best way to really know.

Also, there is a right answer: don't actually clip

I haven't messed with that setting since setting up my FM3, so it's out-of-mind. BTW, it's on page 13 of the FM3 manual. Page 108 is MIDI stuff.

EDIT: I'll add on that I agree with Chris above that B is probably what you want. Don't overthink it. It's doubtful you'll actually attack the strings with the same intensity when playing vs just banging on the strings as hard as you can to test the input level.

 

[unix-guy]

I haven't messed with that setting since setting up my FM3, so it's out-of-mind. BTW, it's on page 13 of the FM3 manual. Page 108 is MIDI stuff.

EDIT: I'll add on that I agree with Chris above that B is probably what you want. Don't overthink it. It's doubtful you'll actually attack the strings with the same intensity when playing vs just banging on the strings as hard as you can to test the input level.

Sorry, it is page 102 - I/O: Audio global settings.

 

[Paulzx]

Yeah this whole "tickling the red" is very vague ...... I think I'm going to leave it at 6db that way its never an issue.

I was only interested as Page #7 of the manual reads:-

" .... The possible values are 0dB, 6dB, 12dB, and 18dB. Be aware that as you increase this setting you also increase the noise floor, so set it as close to 0 as possible for the best signal-to-noise ratio. Input Pad adjustments do not affect gain levels or what you hear. As you pad the input of the A/D converter, the output is boosted by the same amount. This eliminates clipping but ensures unity gain .... "

Ben

What is the difference in the sound you're getting using both methods, just out of interest? I'm wondering if you're input signal really is too hot, is that giving you any noticeably undesirable sound? Or are we obsessing about something here that makes no tangible difference to the end result?

 

[ben ifin]

..... or are we obsessing about something here that makes no tangible difference to the end result?

^^ This.

I only raised it due to what read in the manual on Page #7 ie:- " The possible values are 0dB, 6dB, 12dB, and 18dB. Be aware that as you increase this setting you also increase the noise floor, so set it as close to 0 as possible for the best signal-to-noise ratio. "

Cant really hear any difference though, so leaving mine at the 6db [reduction] so my physical onboard FM3 Meter Red L.e.d never even partially lights up.

Ben

 

[fcs101]

^^ This.

I only raised it due to what read in the manual on Page #7 ie:- " The possible values are 0dB, 6dB, 12dB, and 18dB. Be aware that as you increase this setting you also increase the noise floor, so set it as close to 0 as possible for the best signal-to-noise ratio. "

Cant really hear any difference though, so leaving mine at the 6db [reduction] so my physical onboard FM3 Meter Red L.e.d never even partially lights up.

Ben

Yes, the fact that we have predetermined settings based 6 db apart is a great indicator.

 

[DJD100]

I recorded stuff into Pro Tools with relatively hot passive humbuckers (Duncan JB's), and I found that I needed to set the input pad to 18db to get pristine unclipped waveforms, so it's best to check by recording into a DAW and zooming in to examine the waveform IME.

I used Input Block to Output Block in the FM3, and played hard with both fingers and picks, but didn't just bang on the strings etc.

 

[mr_fender]

Yep. Guitar pickups can be surprisingly dynamic. A hard pick attack can create a pretty hot spike in the waveform relative to the sustain of the note, even with weaker single coils. The initial attack can be clipping and it's tough to hear because the duration is short compared to the sustain of the note. If you want maximum punch to your dynamics, err on the side of a higher pad setting. 24 bit audio has plenty of dynamic range to capture the full signal with a high level of detail.

 

[ben ifin]

Thinking about this ... currently the options are 0db, 6db, 12db and 18db.

In order to fine tune and maximize the signal-to-noise ratio .... it would make more sense [to me at least] if this setting allowed for 1db increments ie: 0db, 1db, 2db, 3db, 4db, 5db, 6db, 7db etc ... up to 18db

What I don't know and have no idea about whatsoever is if such a change can simply be made via a FW software change -or- are the current 0db, 6db, 12db and 18db settings hardware-wired-in to the FM3 and therefore not "upgradeable" (?)

Ben

 

[DJD100]

Thinking about this ... currently the options are 0db, 6db, 12db and 18db.

In order to fine tune and maximize the signal-to-noise ratio .... it would make more sense [to me at least] if this setting allowed for 1db increments ie: 0db, 1db, 2db, 3db, 4db, 5db, 6db, 7db etc ... up to 18db

What I don't know and have no idea about whatsoever is if such a change can simply be made via a FW software change -or- are the current 0db, 6db, 12db and 18db settings hardware-wired-in to the FM3 and therefore not "upgradeable" (?)

Ben

Not a big deal as...

a) The HW's self-noise is minimal (especially when compared with tube gear!).
b) The amp and drive models have more than enough gain to deal with any input pad scenario.

The doubling of sound pressure (voltage) corresponds to a level change of +6 dB.

 

[scarbodave]

...
The doubling of sound pressure voltage corresponds to a level change of +6 dB.

I have no idea what sound pressure voltage is, but the doubling of input signal voltage is a 3 dB increase in voltage and a 6 dB increase in power.

When adjusting signal attenuation to avoid clipping voltage is the relevant metric, not power. So I believe the 6 dB adjustments here correspond to a quadrupling of the input signal voltage.

While it is ideal to be as close to the limit of clipping as possible without actually clipping, in practice the noise floor is low enough that being 6 dB lower than ideal is not an issue. In other words, don't choose 24 dB of padding when 0 or 6 will do, but don't fret over whether the best setting is 6 or 12 (if in doubt choose 12).

 

[DJD100]

I have no idea what sound pressure voltage is, but the doubling of input signal voltage is a 3 dB increase in voltage and a 6 dB increase in power.

When adjusting signal attenuation to avoid clipping voltage is the relevant metric, not power. So I believe the 6 dB adjustments here correspond to a quadrupling of the input signal voltage.

Google: Voltage can also be expressed in decibels, such as dBV when Vref = 1 V RMS (root-mean-square) or dBu when Vref = 0.775 V RMS. For example, 6 dB represents a doubling of voltage.

If concerned about maximum dynamics and the cleanest clean tones, it's simply best to test via DAW with your loudest instrument or input signal chain if running pedals or preamps IME.

 

[stephanfm3]

Hi all !

Quick question re: FM3 Input Level " Tickling the Red ".

(a) if I run the Pad at 6db ..... it never ever hits the Red regardless of how hard I play.

(b) if I run the Pad at 0db ..... it Flash's Red whenever I hit or chug hard but never stays on the Red permanently.

What would be considered "the best" way to set it (?) (a) -or- (b) (?)

Many thanks,
Ben

Tele? I have a Tele with the single coils and I am on 0db pad. Don't know if it was C Carter who mentioned it in one of his videos, but I think I remember he or someone else said that above the red ist still a 6db headroom. so tickling shouldn't be much of an issue.