Fletcher-Munson when considering in-ears & headphones for gigs/rehearsals?

[Ugly Bunny]

My band rehearses using headphones and the rest of the band (not me) uses in-ears for gigs.

How do you guys who use in-ears take the FM curve into consideration? What makes the most sense, IMO, is to make the preset sound good in headphones, since that's the majority case use, and then the soundman can roll of the highs and lows of the guitar signal (and/or boost the mids) post-monitor mix; this way, the band gets the full-range of the signal and the guitar isn't boomy & icepicky to the audience, but also not nasally/overly midrange-heavy to the band, as it would be if I dialed in the guitar tone at "gig volume" (in quotations, since gig volume is also headphone volume, practically speaking).

Am I understanding this correctly? Anyone else figured out a good/better way to do this?

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

My band rehearses using headphones and the rest of the band (not me) uses in-ears for gigs.

How do you guys who use in-ears take the FM curve into consideration? What makes the most sense, IMO, is to make the preset sound good in headphones, since that's the majority case use, and then the soundman can roll of the highs and lows of the guitar signal (and/or boost the mids) post-monitor mix; this way, the band gets the full-range of the signal and the guitar isn't boomy & icepicky to the audience, but also not nasally/overly midrange-heavy to the band, as it would be if I dialed in the guitar tone at "gig volume" (in quotations, since gig volume is also headphone volume, practically speaking).

Am I understanding this correctly? Anyone else figured out a good/better way to do this?

Being a soundman and a performer... the right way to do this is to set up your sound exactly the way you want it in headphones/monitors, which should sound close in the P.A. out front where the soundman can adjust accordingly for the whole band mix. Meanwhile, he will use an auxilary send to send your guitar signal/channel back to your "in ears" receiver, where you can eq that guitar signal coming back to you to taste (the aux channel will have an eq available for it). And of course, that depends on if you are using an ipad/tablet that is connected to a/his digital mixer and you have the program on your tablet to mix your own monitor signal, if not, then you will have to tell him what you want/need for eq into your in ears. You will also have the ability with that setup to mix as much of the other instruments/vocals into your "in ears". However, I have found that eq for the guitar in your "in ears" in a live setting, is not so important, maybe some minor adjustments, but as long as you can hear yourself and the other instruments/vocals being monitored, it will suffice. What is most important is what the audience is hearing out front. In ear monitoring can take a little bit of getting used to. I hope this is helpful.

 

[BigBabyBurrito]

My approach is very much the opposite. I dial in tones as loud as possible on studio monitors (HS8) ahead of time, then do very little tweaking during practice or gigs. I've gotten used to how things sound in my IEMs so if I do have to make an adjustment, I have a good reference point. We consistently get praise from sound engineers at gigs for how easy we are to mix, which helps us get booked repeatedly

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

My approach is very much the opposite. I dial in tones as loud as possible on studio monitors (HS8) ahead of time, then do very little tweaking during practice or gigs. I've gotten used to how things sound in my IEMs so if I do have to make an adjustment, I have a good reference point. We consistently get praise from sound engineers at gigs for how easy we are to mix, which helps us get booked repeatedly

Right I agree, get your sound set before going to P.A. and allow the soundman to do his thing. In ears is basically after the fact monitoring and it is great that you are saying you've gotten use to "how things sound in the in ears" cuz it will sound a little different.

 

[la szum]

To be honest, rehearsing with headphones sounds like total and complete hell. I sure
hope I have not been such a bad boy on Earth that I get sent to that place in the afterlife,
provided there is one.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

[...] it is great that you are saying you've gotten use to "how things sound in the in ears" cuz it will sound a little different.

The brain has this amazing ability to adjust how it perceives sound and will quickly adapt to the difference so it will sound good in a short while. Turn it up until it's comfortably loud and work with the sound man so the levels are right.

It's the same when working with headphones too; my brain adjusts and soon I don't notice that my HD650 sound that much different than DT-770s, except for the difference in open-back and closed. I notice that the 770s are brighter at first, but 20-30 minutes later I don't hear it.

 

[JoKeR III]

I'm very hands on with our FOH mix as well as monitor mix, have had to assume audio engineer responsibilities as well as music director. I use 64 Audio A3 custom in ears and my monitor level is lower than most people use or prefer, at least those I've worked with, and have had to make no EQ adjustments for either the monitor system or FOH. I use Focal Alpha 65's at home for creating and tweaking presets, all of which have translated perfectly to our system. I've listened to my presets at home at varying levels as well as live in the auditorium/monitors and have never felt the need to adjust anything at any volume for any environment.

Fletcher-Munson gets thrown around rather haphazardly and is blamed for things that have nothing to do with the phenomenon. If you have good gear, everything will work together and sound great at moderate to high volumes. Add any cheap component to the equation and that changes things drastically.

When I first started using my Axe direct, I noticed that in a live setting my presets sounded very shrill, way too much top end. I thought they sounded 'good' at home, but was never happy with my live tones. After a few weeks of frustration, I started over, creating a preset from scratch, no saved blocks or templates. I selected an amp, the AC-20 EF86 Treble, and an IR, the 1X12 AC-20 DLX MIX, left everything at their default settings and started playing.

What I immediately heard was mids focused, very different from my original presets. Rather than rush to adjust anything, I decided to give the default settings chance. The more I played, the more I discovered the tone was much more authentic, it was a great guitar tone. I went back to my original presets, at the same volume as my new AC-20 preset, and guess how they sounded? Yep, very shrill, way too much top end. Imagine that!

It didn't take long to change how I EQ'd my presets and again, since adopting this new approach, have had zero issues with presets anywhere I play. I have some parameters that I tweak but I still have that AC-20 preset that I'll reference from time to time to make sure I don't get back into any bad habits.

Bottom line, don't be too quick to blame Fletcher-Munson for presets that sound very different when listening or monitoring on different systems and/or volume. It's more likely your own methods and habits as well as your ears adjusting to what you think sounds good at home.

 

[ZipGun68]

My band rehearses using headphones and the rest of the band (not me) uses in-ears for gigs.

How do you guys who use in-ears take the FM curve into consideration? What makes the most sense, IMO, is to make the preset sound good in headphones, since that's the majority case use, and then the soundman can roll of the highs and lows of the guitar signal (and/or boost the mids) post-monitor mix; this way, the band gets the full-range of the signal and the guitar isn't boomy & icepicky to the audience, but also not nasally/overly midrange-heavy to the band, as it would be if I dialed in the guitar tone at "gig volume" (in quotations, since gig volume is also headphone volume, practically speaking).

Am I understanding this correctly? Anyone else figured out a good/better way to do this?

You have a lot of faith in the "soundman" Brave soul indeed...

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Right I agree, get your sound set before going to P.A. and allow the soundman to do his thing. In ears is basically after the fact monitoring and it is great that you are saying you've gotten use to "how things sound in the in ears" cuz it will sound a little different.

Hmm. You're basically agreeing by disagreeing lol. He's saying to dial the preset in at a loud volume, but you were saying to dial it in to sound good in headphones and let the soundman do his thing.

You have a lot of faith in the "soundman" Brave soul indeed...

Well, it is my bassist, @Thirtyandseven, and we keep getting hired for bigger and better-paying gigs, so my faith isn't really unfounded lol

To be honest, rehearsing with headphones sounds like total and complete hell. I sure
hope I have not been such a bad boy on Earth that I get sent to that place in the afterlife,
provided there is one.

Well, let me put it this way; we sound like the CD. I have been in bands before where in-ears or headphone rehearsal sounded like trash, but we have two Axe Fx units and a Helix, 4 great mics, and some halfway decent electric drums. I really have no complaints. That said, I always opt for no in-ears for gigs, as I like to hear the room

(and no, there's no afterlife - or at least currently no evidence for one - so you're safe lol!!)

 

[RobbyDeeMusic]

Hmm. You're basically agreeing by disagreeing lol. He's saying to dial the preset in at a loud volume, but you were saying to dial it in to sound good in headphones and let the soundman do his thing.

No, you misunderstood me... I was saying dial in your sound first via headphone or monitors, either way will work, he added the loud part. I was simply saying that I would dial it in ahead of time and let the soundman do his thing, instead of worrying about dialing it in post mix/monitoring using in ears.

 

[mr_fender]

Keep in mind that the equivalent level you typically hear in headphones or IEM's would be quite loud through regular speakers. 100 dB through headphones is much easier to hit than you think when you are not feeling the sound with the rest of your body. I hear people walking around all the time with headphones or buds just blasting away so loud I can hear what they are listening to. That equivalent level from speakers would be crazy loud. If you run your headphones or IEM's like that, FM is not really going to be a concern.

 

[Thirtyandseven]

To be honest, rehearsing with headphones sounds like total and complete hell. I sure
hope I have not been such a bad boy on Earth that I get sent to that place in the afterlife,
provided there is one.

Practicing through headphones with e-drums is a god send. You can actually hear everyone, don’t have to fire up a P/A just for vocals and don’t have to wear ear plugs because your ear is 1 foot away from the crash cymbal lol. I’ve had my days blasting my bass tube amp to compete with the guitar players triple Rec lol.

 

[Thirtyandseven]

Well, it is my bassist, @Thirtyandseven, and we keep getting hired for bigger and better-paying gigs, so my faith isn't really unfounded lol

100hz HPF 8khz LPF lol

 

[Rumbletone]

To be honest, rehearsing with headphones sounds like total and complete hell. I sure
hope I have not been such a bad boy on Earth that I get sent to that place in the afterlife,
provided there is one.

Sadly it’s the new reality. I got my first modeller (FM3) only because I joined a band that does almost everything with only IEMs. Currently rehearsing over JamKazam, when we rehearse in person it’s solely IEMs (and nothing mic’s - the loudest things in the room are vocals and acoustic guitar), and for gigs there is a PA for house but stage is just IEMs.

I don’t love it, but it has its advantages (I can actually hear everything I need to every time and can tweak my own monitor mix) and probably does result in a consistently better sound for the audience.

 

[Rumbletone]

I don’t see FM as an issue - I try to keep SPLs the same whether using IEMs or not. There are EQ and dynamics differences between IEMs and a PA in many cases, but for me the approach is to program sounds for the PA and it doesn’t really matter whether it sounds ‘good’ in the IEMs any more than the wedge mix needed to - it’s for monitoring so you can perform well, or to sound great.

 

[JoKeR III]

I don’t love it, but it has its advantages (I can actually hear everything I need to every time and can tweak my own monitor mix) and probably does result in a consistently better sound for the audience.

If you haven't already, set up a couple of shotgun or small condenser mics on either side of the stage pointed at the crowd and mix it in your monitors. The biggest hurdle for me to overcome was the disconnected feel from the environment. I ended up with 64 Audio A3's which have a port that allows some ambient sound in and it has helped tremendously. That and taking the time to EQ the instruments and vocals in the monitors is another key factor to 'enjoying' IEMs.

Here's what we used: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...B5bOyszYZvQ3iCh3atBoC4iAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Rumbletone]

If you haven't already, set up a couple of shotgun or small condenser mics on either side of the stage pointed at the crowd and mix it in your monitors. The biggest hurdle for me to overcome was the disconnected feel from the environment. I ended up with 64 Audio A3's which have a port that allows some ambient sound in and it has helped tremendously. That and taking the time to EQ the instruments and vocals in the monitors is another key factor to 'enjoying' IEMs.

Here's what we used: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...B5bOyszYZvQ3iCh3atBoC4iAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks for the suggestion! I have some options already - like Oktavas - that we could use. Great sound, and affordable enough that I wouldn’t mind putting them up at a live venue.

 

[Thirtyandseven]

If you haven't already, set up a couple of shotgun or small condenser mics on either side of the stage pointed at the crowd and mix it in your monitors. The biggest hurdle for me to overcome was the disconnected feel from the environment. I ended up with 64 Audio A3's which have a port that allows some ambient sound in and it has helped tremendously. That and taking the time to EQ the instruments and vocals in the monitors is another key factor to 'enjoying' IEMs.

Here's what we used: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...B5bOyszYZvQ3iCh3atBoC4iAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Great idea! Definitely will try this at some point.

 

[la szum]

Sadly it’s the new reality.

It's cool that it works for others. That is NOT a reality I will be calling home anytime
soon, though. I probably won't even visit.

I am guessing the native inhabitants will be glad to hear that.... in their IEMs and Headphones.

 

[Rumbletone]

It's cool that it works for others. That is NOT a reality I will be calling home anytime
soon, though. I probably won't even visit.

I am guessing the native inhabitants will be glad to hear that.... in their IEMs and Headphones.

If you don’t gig for a living, or you do but you’re good enough to keep busy with gigs that don’t demand IEMs, that’s a great approach. I think many/most do it because they need to eat and those are the paying gigs. All the major corporate/wedding bands I’m aware of here are using modellers with IEMs and no amps on stage, even with acoustic drums. And many of the original bands seem to be going that route also.