Firmware Updates

s0c9 said:
I guess we'll disagree on the level of effort involved on checking a website, then. No-one is "asking" you to check a website... there is NO "need" to upgrade the firmware once you have bought a unit.. the upgrade choice is yours, and yours alone. That Cliff continues to provide FREE upgrades for firmware is awesome. Compare that to most other vendors models and #crickets.. In fact, I'm still waiting for a promised L6 upgrade from about 7 yrs ago...
If you want to upgrade.. check on it. If you miss the release by a day or even a month, so what? You've lost nothing.
"Make things simple and transparent and you'll have happy customers and save money"
It's not costing FAS anything under their current model.. so THEY are NOT saving anything by maintaining an email notification list. You might be saving a little elbow grease, but not wanting to put effort into doing something seems typical of today's entitlement philosophy. Mail room on Mon, CEO by Friday.

NOTE: The above is a personal viewpoint and not a formal FAS nor forum moderator position.
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well... that's NOT true if it's bug fixes though is it?

I mean people that pay €1600 for a product that has bugs should be able to learn when a bug has been fixed WITHOUT being a forum junkie...

You say that, "It's not costing FAS anything under their current model.. so THEY are NOT saving anything by maintaining an email notification list."

There's two points there:

- I don't think they should have an email notification list
- assuming that making people happy is the equivalent of customers being forced to check a website for upgrades/fixes is a stretch at best

My point to you is that people being able to get this information without a hassle will make them happy. If there was a single thread that people could subscribe to (the original suggestion which I agreed with) it would ALSO cost nothing AND would make some people happy that are currently unhappy at having to check this forum or the website to know if their product has been upgraded or fixed, in the case of bugs.

I literally don't understand how a free to generate thread that solves the problem is a big deal that deserves push back? I get that to YOU PERSONALLY it's not a big hassle to check a website, but I can tell you that to some people it actually is.

I had an issue with a delay pedal - a bug - I was told it would be fixed soon... I checked the website daily for 4 months and by the end of that I was frankly pissed off... yeah, it's just a few seconds, but every time I checked and it wasn't there (and btw a year later it's still not) I felt like I was being jerked around... maybe not after 30 days, or 60 days, but after 90 days of checking I certainly was. The endless checking was a REMINDER of my broken pedal.

Now my FX8 has bugs, that's fair enough - we all know the story - and I love it to bits and expect it to be fixed - but I do find myself back in the same loop of checking every day...

If I KNEW that I didn't have to, I'd forget about it more or less and be happily surprised when the new Firmware comes out...

I know this probably is completely mind boggling to you, and I accept that this is NOT how you relate to products... totally fine, but here's the flip side: other people DO get frustrated by having to proactively check for updates... that's extra hassle, especially if it's for a bug fix...

You and FAS can avoid that ALL by simply making a free thread that people get an email notification from whenever you guys update it. The first time people come here they can read the FAQ, subscribe to the thread and never come back if it doesn't SUIT THEM. AND. They'll still know when their awesome new upgrade, fix is available.

I hope I helped you understand my perspective on this... I appreciate that it's not something you feel yourself, but please understand others do...

I also hope I didn't come across as rude or snarky or anything... I'm in no way upset or annoyed, etc. I just wanted to be clear and thoroughly explain my - and other's - position.
 
s0c9 said:
That Cliff continues to provide FREE upgrades for firmware is awesome. Compare that to most other vendors models and #crickets.. In fact, I'm still waiting for a promised L6 upgrade from about 7 yrs ago...
Click to expand...

My comment has nothing do with notifications as I don't really have a horse in that race.

You know, at a certain point, everything relates to price and expectations. When I bought 300-500 dollar L6 or Boss pedals, I was firmly aware of their limitations and the fact they wouldn't get updated. You get what you pay for. Regardless of how things are billed, people do put down 1500-2500 dollars on Fractal products with expectations of support and updates. It's been part of the draw, and people advertising FAS products in reviews always comment that you get the frequent updates that makes them better. So people definitely feel part of the $1,000 to $2,000 extra they are spending on a FAS product is also going towards the updates. When I had my FX8 on trial period I decided to keep it on the promise of what it can still be with the promised updates.

I always feel that it's a bit weird to say that an expensive boutique manufacturer (like FAS) gives updates as if it some blessing from the Gods (and it's never the company that says that, just over zealous defenders.) We appreciate it. We appreciate it by using our hard earned money to buy the expensive product versus a 300 dollar L6 pedal. Anyone at these companies who don't think that the updates are a part of the deal when we spend 1000's of dollars is fooling themselves. Had All FAS products stayed on just 3 firmwares they wouldn't have sold near as many or created the following. So regardless how any company wants to spin it and say "free updates" let's not fool ourselves... The larger percentage of sales have customers who are dishing out the extra dough with full expectations of the extra support and updates. I wouldn't have bought an FX8 if I thought it was going to stay as is.. Just because it's not a billable line item doesn't mean that most aren't factoring that in with the extra cost (versus a Boss or L6 cheaper pedal.) It's become a reason for dishing out the extra money to buy a FAS product. "Dude, you can get a L6, but even though FAS costs more, they keep updating it!." Very frequent comment.

Which may kinda even suck for a company like FAS, as they feel that that wasn't part of the original deal, but that's what costumers definitely expect for the purchase price. Of course, everyone knows Cliff gets excited in figuring out new ways to make the Axe even better.

One last thing. You mention entitlement mentality.

Do you know how much money $1500-$2500 is? Please don't go down the path of calling people who spend that much money, entitled for expecting certain things above and beyond that of $300 products. It comes dangerously close to sounding like you feel you are entitled to have us spend our hard earned money however you feel we should with no expectations from us.

I know FAS has nothing to do with your comment, which is good, and they have been a great company, though they have taken on a bit much which has made the FX8 updates a bit rocky. I'm in no hurry at this point and prefer they get it where they want it than send out a rush job.

But I will always be vastly pro-consumer in these forums lest people forget that it is our hard earned money that keeps the lights on.
 
s0c9 said:
I guess we'll disagree on the level of effort involved on checking a website, then. No-one is "asking" you to check a website... there is NO "need" to upgrade the firmware once you have bought a unit.. the upgrade choice is yours, and yours alone. That Cliff continues to provide FREE upgrades for firmware is awesome. Compare that to most other vendors models and #crickets.. In fact, I'm still waiting for a promised L6 upgrade from about 7 yrs ago...
If you want to upgrade.. check on it. If you miss the release by a day or even a month, so what? You've lost nothing.
"Make things simple and transparent and you'll have happy customers and save money"
It's not costing FAS anything under their current model.. so THEY are NOT saving anything by maintaining an email notification list. You might be saving a little elbow grease, but not wanting to put effort into doing something seems typical of today's entitlement philosophy. Mail room on Mon, CEO by Friday.

NOTE: The above is a personal viewpoint and not a formal FAS nor forum moderator position.
Click to expand...
I agree, I must say. FX8 at least for me is working great. Anyway looking for the update but that's my geek attitude...
 
Audiounity said:
My comment has nothing do with notifications as I don't really have a horse in that race.

You know, at a certain point, everything relates to price and expectations. When I bought 300-500 dollar L6 or Boss pedals, I was firmly aware of their limitations and the fact they wouldn't get updated. You get what you pay for. Regardless of how things are billed, people do put down 1500-2500 dollars on Fractal products with expectations of support and updates. It's been part of the draw, and people advertising FAS products in reviews always comment that you get the frequent updates that makes them better. So people definitely feel part of the $1,000 to $2,000 extra they are spending on a FAS product is also going towards the updates. When I had my FX8 on trial period I decided to keep it on the promise of what it can still be with the promised updates.

I always feel that it's a bit weird to say that an expensive boutique manufacturer (like FAS) gives updates as if it some blessing from the Gods (and it's never the company that says that, just over zealous defenders.) We appreciate it. We appreciate it by using our hard earned money to buy the expensive product versus a 300 dollar L6 pedal. Anyone at these companies who don't think that the updates are a part of the deal when we spend 1000's of dollars is fooling themselves. Had All FAS products stayed on just 3 firmwares they wouldn't have sold near as many or created the following. So regardless how any company wants to spin it and say "free updates" let's not fool ourselves... The larger percentage of sales have customers who are dishing out the extra dough with full expectations of the extra support and updates. I wouldn't have bought an FX8 if I thought it was going to stay as is.. Just because it's not a billable line item doesn't mean that most aren't factoring that in with the extra cost (versus a Boss or L6 cheaper pedal.) It's become a reason for dishing out the extra money to buy a FAS product. "Dude, you can get a L6, but even though FAS costs more, they keep updating it!." Very frequent comment.

Which may kinda even suck for a company like FAS, as they feel that that wasn't part of the original deal, but that's what costumers definitely expect for the purchase price.

One last thing. You mention entitlement mentality.

Do you know how much money $1500-$2500 is? Please don't go down the path of calling people who spend that much money, entitled for expecting certain things above and beyond that of $300 products. It comes dangerously close to sounding like you feel you are entitled to have us spend our hard earned money however you feel we should with no expectations from us.

I know FAS has nothing to do with your comment, which is good, and they have been a great company, though they have taken on a bit much which has made the FX8 updates a bit rocky. I'm in hurry at this point and prefer they get it where they want it than send out a rush job.

But I will always be vastly pro-consumer in these forums lest people forget that it is our hard earned money that keeps the lights on.
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I purchased from Fractal because of the sound. Not because of updates. :)
 
Gearzilla said:
I purchased from Fractal because of the sound. Not because of updates. :)
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I'm half and half I guess.

It's virally promoted as part of what you get and the official forum has separate wishlist subforums. The implication is obvious.

I don't think that anyone is OWED anything other than a working (ie bug free) product and I certainly don't think that anyone in FAS has to do anything people in the forums ask for. But. I also spent years managing retail and now own a business. If there's one thing I've learned it's that a little money and/or effort spent judiciously now can save a lot of money and/or effort later. That was the whole reason I rowed into this discussion - to argue that the simple suggestion being made would be free and make some customers happy. And it could save hassle in the future.

I love love love my FX8 (I'm a broken record I know, ) but that shouldn't preclude from saying, "hey that's a good idea". ☺
 
Gearzilla said:
I purchased from Fractal because of the sound. Not because of updates. :)
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I'm considering getting an XL+ instead of Torpedo Live to use with my tube amps for recording after hearing the Quantum update. I had the Axe II 3 years ago, and while I loved the sound, I preferred my tube amps and sold it. Due to the updates that brought it to where it is now (compared to where it was three years ago, which was still great,) I am thinking of buying it again. Had it received no updates and sounded like it did 3 years ago, while still great, I'd probably buy the Torpedo to use with my Friedman BE instead.
 
Audiounity said:
I'm considering getting an XL+ instead of Torpedo Live to use with my tube amps for recording after hearing the Quantum update. I had the Axe II 3 years ago, and while I loved the sound, I preferred my tube amps and sold it. Due to the updates that brought it to where it is now (compared to where it was three years ago, which was still great,) I am thinking of buying it again. Had it received no updates and sounded like it did 3 years ago, while still great, I'd probably buy the Torpedo to use with my Friedman BE instead.
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Cool. Digital technology will continue to evolve. The Axe sounds good today. I've had some interesting tube amps. Both are nice.

Now I'm guessing you didn't expect much in the way of updates with your amps. :)
 
Gearzilla said:
Cool. Digital technology will continue to evolve. The Axe sounds good today. I've had some interesting tube amps. Both are nice.

Now I'm guessing you didn't expect much in the way of updates with your amps. :)
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The tube amps got updated by trading them in for new ones, lol..

However, I do tend to get nervous about digital gear as the depreciation in value is insane compared to analog. $2,000 worth of digital gear 15 years ago would be worth $200-300 today while a fender Vibro-king which was 2 grand 15 years ago may be sold for a much less discounted price today. FAS have been one of the only companies to have their digital boxes retain their value, and I do believe the updates have something to with this. When Kemper came out Cliff made sure to keep the Axe competitive by figuring out his own methods for cloning etc.. So instead of going out of date next to competition like other companies do, he keeps the products on the forefront and they don't go down in value like other electronics do.
 
Audiounity said:
The tube amps got updated by trading them in for new ones, lol..

However, I do tend to get nervous about digital gear as the depreciation in value is insane compared to analog. $2,000 worth of digital gear 15 years ago would be worth $200-300 today while a fender Vibro-king which was 2 grand 15 years ago may be sold for a much less discounted price today. FAS have been one of the only companies to have their digital boxes retain their value, and I do believe the updates have something to with this. When Kemper came out Cliff made sure to keep the Axe competitive by figuring out his own methods for cloning etc.. So instead of going out of date next to competition like other companies do, he keeps the products on the forefront and they don't go down in value like other electronics do.
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Updates are definitely cool.
 
If there was no update path for the FX8 I wouldn't have bought it. I already have a G System that has had no updates for the past 5-6 years and it's the reason um moving away from that too (to the FX8).

I think you have to offer firmware update even if it's just for bug fixes. Although these things get tested to death there are always sone bugs that slip through the net.

The fact we get new features and effects is the icing on the cake - but I think it's all part and parcel of selling multi effects units - Line 6 and Kemper do it so fractal really has to offer the same or similar.
 
i need less computer connection to the fx8, since the box is already intuitive , i think more firmware update with the axefx2 than fx8, with fx8 i've more time playing than spent time with the software edit through computer, but there is still need improvement fractal team should work of it
1. the stability fx8 edit with fx8 it self ( so buggy, when ive change parameter, loading preset, swap preset, etc)
2. CPU optimization
 
That sounds AWESOME Joe! Thanks for the update about an update!

Hopefully it will give me something to do over my 3 weeks of Xmas leave......
 
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