Fighting level issues across presets

AllanH

AllanH

Inspired
Hi lads...

I love my Axe FX XL+, but the main thing that is a returning issue and cause of frustration (and actually the only thing that could drive me back to a tube amp setup) is leveling presets. I use all the tricks in the book, I have 1db vol incr/decr. buttons dedicated on my MFC (which is smart enough) I use the vol. meters at the axe (why is it not on the Axe edit please) etc etc, and I get in the ball park fast, but its always a bit of fumbling around I think. Then a new firmware, amp reset etc, maybe a new guitar and off we go again leveling presets....

Well..... here is my newest idea, and I just need to ask you lot if this would work or not?

I have a vol. block before my amps in all my 20 presets (one per song) I use for swells and taking the top of at verses, which I need. Then I thought about implementing a filter (NULL) block at the end of my presets, connecting a 2. expression pedal controlling that filter block. Then my idea is to set the heal down (0%) to start at -4 db and toe down (100%) to +4 db (well maybe its 3 or 5 db, but you get the point?) is it that simpel in the control menu for the filter block that this is what it will do?
The before mentioned vol buttons on my MFC does the same and autosaves, but because it doesnt adjust level across all scenes it's not really what I need or want (if it could do that, I think life would be SO much more easier for many Axe FX users?) . My idea is after a song I can then see...OK +2.5 db is what I need, adjust the preset level and in a few rehearsals it's leveled (is it possible to see in the axe display what the level knop is moved to controlled by the expression pedal? It's not at the Axe edit if I remember correctly

Cheers
Allan

PS.
Yes I also considered changing my setup to lets say 5 presets, but hen it would be some sort of compromises etc.... and I refuse that... because thats one of the reasons I'm an Axe FX user...I play in a tribute band, and the Axe make it possible ti nail the sound across many recordings witch makes it really authentic
 
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Oh I forgot to mention... I have of cause used global blocks to my 5 different amps, so I adjust more than one amp at a time ;)
 
I started using speaker emulators and going direct to FOH somewhere in the very early '90's (first direct setup was an ADA MP1 into a Hughes & Ketner Red Box back in '91). Initially, I'd have my guitar signal sent back through my stage monitors, eventually I went to IEM's. Depending on the gig/room, I'd also switch back and forth to mic'd cabs on stage as well, until around 2005-06 when I went exclusively to modelers, direct to FOH, and IEM's...And haven't looked back since. What I've found with "leveling" sounds, is that there's a number of variables that are challenging (if not somewhat impossible) to account for, and also maybe a little "voodoo" involved. I'm relatively new to Fractal (and loving it!), but here are some of the things I've found over the years with various gear.

1. The response of the FOH system (assuming you're not using the same FOH system exclusively) will have an impact on how your guitar sits in the mix, as well as the room you're playing in. This extends to more than just the guitar.
2. Unless you're setting up specific sounds for each song you play, a specific sound or patch will likely sit slightly different in the mix from song to song.
3. Something that sounds good at sound check, when there's 50 people in the venue, may sound a bit different once there's 400 people in the room. Especially in the winter weather, when 400 people also means 400 heavy coats....Talk about changing room acoustics!
4. The volume you play at will make a difference...When you're creating and leveling patches, try to be as close to gig volume as you can, and try to be playing through speakers that are at least somewhat similar to what you''ll be playing through live (within reason...Obviously you can't have a line array in your living room).
5. If you use a wireless live, use the wireless to create and level your sounds.
6. Use meters for leveling, but trust your ears. It's extremely common for a patch "sound" louder or softer than it meters...Particularly if you've got a lot of bottom end in the patch.

There are, of course, other factors...But this is what hit me off the top of my head. All of these things are relatively small by themselves, but the compounding impact can be significant.
 
Thanks Gary, I tottally agree and I am familiar with all your (great) points, but it IS in fact just vol. level in our rehearsing room. When playing live I always have a sound guy trimming and helping out if needed, I just need to know my presets are quite even across them, and I have them leveled many times before, but it's a hazle (just want a simpel way of leveling after doing other changes and adjustments)
 
I start with my cleanest and quietest preset, and then I flip back and forth between my presets (yes it's a pain in the neck) but I level them out by ear. The VU meters are helpful, but for me, only to a point. When I started using modelers, I too struggled with preset level balance. Over the years,I have settled in to a method that works for me.
 
AllanH said:
Thanks Gary, I tottally agree and I am familiar with all your (great) points, but it IS in fact just vol. level in our rehearsing room. When playing live I always have a sound guy trimming and helping out if needed, I just need to know my presets are quite even across them, and I have them leveled many times before, but it's a hazle (just want a simpel way of leveling after doing other changes and adjustments)
Click to expand...

If it's just the level in the practice room, I wouldn't beat my head against the wall chasing it. Grab a cheap-o compressor and stick it at the end of your signal chain. When you're creating new sounds, balance them out via meters and by ear as best you can as you create them, and assuming you have the same sound man consistently, just have him make notes for you when something needs adjusted. Because of the variable we've already discussed, there won't ever be a silver-bullet fix.
 
sounds to me like your issue is the perception of volume, not the actual volume itself. two amps can be at the same volume db wise but the perceived volume is very different due to compression characteristics, eq, how it breaks up, etc.
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, it's much appreciated. I know about the room, the dirty compression sounds seems louder than equal clean etc etc etc, however, I know when I have used (a shit load of) time leveling presets it works with no adjustments. It is just murder getting there, switching between them all..... Anyhow, if I should short it down, I would like: An Expression pedal, where the pedals full range goes from -4db to +4db across all scenes in a preset, do you think my idea would work? Any smarter ways of doing it but the filter block?

All the best
 
I have used the +1/-1 db MFC switch, although its scene-specificity can lead to unintended effects if you are not careful. I used to use IA#11 as a boost switch, which was less effective for me. I usually send my stage signal to my CLRs and my FOH send through out1 and out2 respectively, so I can tweak my stage volume easily without disturbing the mix. And for my most heavily used presets, I typically assign one of my expression pedals as a boost that provides 2-3db of additional push so I have it if I need it.

The most important thing: check levels out at soundcheck and hit the presets that tend to be problematic in this regard. For me, balancing cleaner amps with more overdriven tones can be a challenge; and as was pointed out above, the context (winter coats vs. outdoor gig in the summer) make a huge difference!
 
AllanH said:
Thanks for all the advice guys, it's much appreciated. I know about the room, the dirty compression sounds seems louder than equal clean etc etc etc, however, I know when I have used (a shit load of) time leveling presets it works with no adjustments. It is just murder getting there, switching between them all..... Anyhow, if I should short it down, I would like: An Expression pedal, where the pedals full range goes from -4db to +4db across all scenes in a preset, do you think my idea would work? Any smarter ways of doing it but the filter block?

All the best
Click to expand...
I do that - I also level all my presets and scenes to the best of my ability to fit perfect with the band, but in all presets, I have an 'emergency master volume' block (actually a GEQ). It is bypassed in all scenes per default, but I can activate it with a footswitch, and then I can do preset-wide level management with my expression pedal.

I wish that there was some way to set a parameter value with the expression pedal, so it is just right, and then retrieve that value and save it for later use. But I don't think that is currently possible in the fractal system.
 
Agree Smittefar, that would be a fantastic feature...

Well, yesterday I implemented a Filter block in all presets, with a modifier attached to the block level (expr. pedal 2) The modifier is limited to -4db (heal down) and +4db (toe down) This block is activated in all presets across all scenes. that means the level is 0 db with the pedal at 50%, like the filter not being active (it's a NULL filter)

My plan is to start gigs out with the pedal at 50% (0 db) then if the preset seems a bit high, I can lower it with the pedal across all scenes and leave it there for the rest of that song. When the song is over, I can make a quick adjustment on my amp level, and set the pedal back to 50% Then it should be really close for next use of the same preset. Maybe I can see the pedal position (for instance 40%) at the modifier screen on the Axe? I can see it on AXE Edit, so I need to test that. If that's the case I know exactly how much I should adjust my amp block (thats where i adjust my overall preset level) Because of this setup I have quite fair travel range on my pedal from -4 to +4 db which should be easy to work with in a band situation. Also I think +/- 4db is too wide, and I expect to lower it to, say +/- 3 db'ish and then it would be even more user friendly?

On another note... I went through all my (20) presets, and organized them so that amp types was paired with the same Cab type, organized the global block etc etc. Then it came down to 6 different type of presets where some are reused (only delay settings and other non volume affecting stuff etc are deviating) I copied these 6 type in another position, and inserted a looper in each. Then I made a small loop with hard hitting chords, and with this running I could quickly jump between the 6 presets adjusting the amp level acc. to the VU meter in the AXE utility menu. When adjusting one of these it also adjusted the gig presets because of the global blocks

One thing I learned was why there was a vol diff between output 1 and 2. I use output one with Cab simulation and out put 2 via FX send block in the grid without simulation (into a Matrix power amp and Matrix neodyne cabs = Awesome real old school guitar sound) The reason was, that the Cab adds some volume til the preset, even on 0 db in it's level setting. I never reelized that before yesterday and that has been a contributing reason for my frustration, because my cabs behind me has had diff. output depending on which cab sim I used in the preset . I used the level settin. on each cab to equalize the output between out 1 and 2 looking at the VU meter in the Axe Fx.

Another trick I did, was using the scene output on the FX block (also with set up with global block adjustment) to boost my lead scenes... then I had no need for filter blocks to do this. Of cause I need to keep the main output block the same as the FX send block so it works on both FOH output and my cabs... well this was a long arse post, but I hope maybe others could benefit from this, I certainly learned a LOT the past few nights, and I believe my leveling will be much easier in the future. Now I only need the fine adjustment in band situation and lower the vol a tad on my presets with use of humbucker guitars

Thank you all for your input, I hope I gave something back
 
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