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EVM-12L IR's - Apologies to Red Wirez

smilefan

Experienced
I jumped on the bandwagon trashing the recent EVM 12L IR's.
Wasn't happy with them like alot of folks. I heard they were
sampled from new EVM 12L Classics. A speaker I love, that in fact
amplifies my Axe rig (4 in open back pine 2x12's). But I wasn't
hearing it.

Well. I hated to give up on this IR. So, I kept messing with it.
Low and behold I found a mike that makes the IR sound JUST
LIKE my beloved 12L Classics. The Earthworks TC-30. This sounds
perfect. Same signature EQ. Sounds like my speakers coming thru
my speakers! Cool. Finally.
So. My apologies for saying the new EVM12-L IR’s didn’t sound right.
They sound just right (to my ears in the room), thru theTC-30.
Could we get some more extensive samples of EVM 12L's, maybe
thru some bigger cabinets?
 

steverosburg

Experienced
smilefan said:
I jumped on the bandwagon trashing the recent EVM 12L IR's.
Wasn't happy with them like alot of folks. I heard they were
sampled from new EVM 12L Classics. A speaker I love, that in fact
amplifies my Axe rig (4 in open back pine 2x12's). But I wasn't
hearing it.

Well. I hated to give up on this IR. So, I kept messing with it.
Low and behold I found a mike that makes the IR sound JUST
LIKE my beloved 12L Classics. The Earthworks TC-30. This sounds
Perfect. Same signature EQ. Sounds like my speakers coming thru
My speakers! Cool. Finally.
So. My apologies for saying the new EVM12-L IR’s didn’t sound right.
They sound just right. Thru theTC-30. Could me get some more extensive
Samples thru this mike!?
The TC-30 is supposed to be a truly flat mic, so it's like choosing no mic at all. Basically, what you should be hearing with the TC-30 is the true signature of the speaker, without mic coloration.
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
smilefan said:
I jumped on the bandwagon trashing the recent EVM 12L IR's.
Wasn't happy with them like alot of folks. I heard they were
sampled from new EVM 12L Classics. A speaker I love, that in fact
amplifies my Axe rig (4 in open back pine 2x12's). But I wasn't
hearing it.

Well. I hated to give up on this IR. So, I kept messing with it.
Low and behold I found a mike that makes the IR sound JUST
LIKE my beloved 12L Classics. The Earthworks TC-30. This sounds
Perfect. Same signature EQ. Sounds like my speakers coming thru
My speakers! Cool. Finally.
So. My apologies for saying the new EVM12-L IR’s didn’t sound right.
They sound just right. Thru theTC-30. Could me get some more extensive
Samples thru this mike!?
Sorry (and apologies to Mike at Red Wires who is by all measures a prince of a dude), but I couldn't disagree more.
I had great hopes for the Red Wires EVM-12L IRs, especially the Earthworks IRs. But they sound nothing like any EVM-12L I've ever owned.

I've gotten much closer myself recording my own IRs of my own EVM-12L equipped cabs as detailed in another thread I have going here.
But even still it's not all there.

In particular, the RW EVM-12L Earthworks IRs are seriously lacking in the type of top-end sibilance that I am familiar with from my real EVM-12Ls.

Here's a graphic of the published freq resp on the EVM-12L:


Here's a graphic of the freq resp on the RW Earthworks TC30 IR (Cap0in):


And here's a graphic of the freq resp of one of my own EVM-12L IRs:


Notice all the weird notches in the upper mids in the RW IR.
That's hardly a flat representation of these speakers.
Something went wrong IMO when they did the EVM IRs at RW because they all sound and look very weird to me, not just the TC30 IRs.
Maybe it's the mahogany cabinet they use for that series, but I doubt it.
Maybe, as Mike said here once, the new EVM "Classics" don't sound the same as the older ones, like the ones I own.

My IR was done with an SM57 on axis with the dust cap at the grille.
It shows the known colouration that an SM57 will impart, especially the drop in the low end below 200hz.
If I had a TC30, based on what I know about them, I'd expect it give results that are much closer to the specs that EV publishes for the 12L.

I don't know what went wrong at Red Wires. But they're not right IMO.

Here's the link to my other thread where I've posted most of my IRs.
There may be a few more in days to come.
http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17394
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
joegold said:
I had great hopes for the Red Wires EVM-12L IRs, especially the Earthworks IRs. But they sound nothing like any EVM-12L I've ever owned.
While that is a true statement, your attribution of the cause of the difference is incorrect.

Here's a graphic of the published freq resp on the EVM-12L:
Being familiar with the methodology and equipment that was used to take that data, I can assure that the published chart is not an accurate representation of the response of that transducer. The published chart has been artificially smoothed to an extent that is obvious to anyone with a background in loudspeaker response testing.

Here's a graphic of the freq resp on the RW Earthworks TC30 IR (Cap0in):
That is a nearfield response. As such, it has no possibility of matching the response of the speaker at a realistic listening distance.

And here's a graphic of the freq resp of one of my own EVM-12L IRs:
Because of the autoscaling that AlbertA's conversion utility applies to data, the response you took and the redwirez response are made to look artifically much more different than they really are. The SM57 adds a "presence boost" as well.

Notice all the weird notches in the upper mids in the RW IR.
Those notches are really there, and they are far less audible than an uneducated observer would guess. The audible differences between your IR and the redwirez one are predominately due to causes other than those narrowband notches.

That's hardly a flat representation of these speakers.
It is, OTOH, very likely an accurate representation of the response of those speakers with the mic placed very close to the cap. Which is quite different than the response you would ever hear from those speakers, and different as well from the response that EV published back in the Pleistocene era of loudspeaker data representation.

Something went wrong IMO when they did the EVM IRs at RW
Nope.

My IR was done with an SM57 on axis with the dust cap at the grille.
It stands no chance of capturing the response that you hear when you play through one of those speakers.

If I had a TC30, based on what I know about them, I'd expect it give results that are much closer to the specs that EV publishes for the 12L.
Your expectation would be mistaken for two reasons: 1) the EV data isn't that accurate, and 2) the EV data was taken in the farfield.

If you really want to get an IR of the speaker that matches what you hear, you need three things: an accurate test mic, data that is taken in the farfield (with no room reflections in the first ~22 milliseconds), and an accurate FRFR monitor. Shortchange any of the three, and you'll never get there.
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
Be that as it may...

My IRs sound very much more to me like a well-mic'd recording of an EVM-12L which is a speaker I've used for years and years and years.
My IR's do not have the mojo in them to make it feel like I'm playing through my own cabs when I use the Axe through an FRFR system, like the QSC K10 and K12 I've been renting off and on. But I didn't expect them to be able to do that, although it would have been real nice if they did.
I like to think that if i had a true reference mic I could get a lot closer to that goal.

And *none* of the Red Wires EVM-12L IRs sound anything like either a well-mic'd recording of these speakers or like the magical sought after "in-the-room" feel of a real EVM-12L.

And if I ever have the opportunity to work with a far-field IR that gets me any closer sonically to any of these goals I'll be a happy camper.
But as of yet I've heard nothing attractive about any of the far-field IRs I've tried. I believe that you are the creator of these IRs. So far, they're not for me. Thanks anyway.

Have you heard the Red Wires EVM-12L IRs Jay?
If so, then what's your opinion of the way they sound?
[Presumably you have some experience with real EVM-12Ls as well. Y/N?]
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
joegold said:
My IRs sound very much more to me like a well-mic'd recording of an EVM-12L which is a speaker I've used for years and years and years.
"Be that as it may," your speculations as to the causes of those differences are simply wrong. There's no other way to put it....

I like to think that if i had a true reference mic I could get a lot closer to that goal.
That's one of three things that are required. One isn't enough.

But as of yet I've heard nothing attractive about any of the far-field IRs I've tried. I believe that you are the creator of these IRs. So far, they're not for me.
Here's what you ignore with such a cavalier, dismissive remark: those IRs all sound exactly like the speakers from which they were acquired. If you don't like them - generously assuming you've ever played them through a sufficiently accurate speaker to even know what they sound like - guess what? You wouldn't like the physical speakers, either. That's a fact.

[Presumably you have some experience with real EVM-12Ls as well.
Yes. Going back some 30 years. They sounded OK to me, but they were never my preferred transducer for guitar. Getting an "in the room" replica of those speakers would pose no real challenge. Were someone to loan me a sample or two, I'd happily generate authentic "in-the-room" IRs. You'll still need an accurate FRFR system for the whole thing to work.
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
joegold wrote:
My IRs sound very much more to me like a well-mic'd recording of an EVM-12L which is a speaker I've used for years and years and years.

Jay wrote:
"Be that as it may," your speculations as to the causes of those differences are simply wrong. There's no other way to put it....
------

All I stated is that the RW EVM-12L IRs do not sound like any EVM-12L that I've ever played through. (Neither does the stock 12L in the Axe for that matter. It's even worse.)
I also stated that the IRs that I've managed to generate myself come a lot closer IMO.
I also stated that I did not know why the RW IRs sound so off. My only speculation is that I feel that something went wrong when RW recorded those IRs.

I tried to give some visual, objective, support to what I am hearing.
I accept your assertions that I do not understand these freq resp graphs. Yet they do seem to support what I'm *hearing*.
-------

joegold wrote:
But as of yet I've heard nothing attractive about any of the far-field IRs I've tried. I believe that you are the creator of these IRs. So far, they're not for me.

Jay wrote:
Here's what you ignore with such a cavalier, dismissive remark: those IRs all sound exactly like the speakers from which they were acquired. If you don't like them - generously assuming you've ever played them through a sufficiently accurate speaker to even know what they sound like - guess what? You wouldn't like the physical speakers, either. That's a fact.
-------

Try not to take this personally Jay, like you always do.
I just don't like the sound of any of the IRs of yours that I've heard.
They don't sound like the in-the-room sound of *any* guitar cab I've ever played through.
And they don't sound like well mic'd close-mic'd recordings of any guitar cab I've ever played through.
Lots of folks here seem to love your IRs. Get the self-validation you seem to need from them, not from me.

Since your far-field IRs are my only experience with far-field IRs, and since I don't like the sound of your far-field IRs, and since I've gotten a *lot* closer to what I want to hear by using close-mic'd IRs, I tend to have little faith in far-field IRs as a whole - even though I think I understand some of the reasons why they should be more effective than close-mic'd IRs..
But like I said earlier in this thread, if a far-field IR comes along that does the trick for me, whether it's from you or from anybody else, I'm all for it.

I've played your IRs, the RW IRs, the stock Axe IRs and my IRs through several different FRFR systems of varying quality - but never through a *perfect* ("sufficiently accurate") system. I don't have access to a perfect system. I've used Yamaha NS10M monitors, Traynor keyboard amps, Yorkville active monitors (E10P and NX55), QSC K10 and K12 active monitors. I've also listened with Stax Lambda Earspeakers and AKG K240 headphones.
My observations about the usefulness (or not) of these IRs has been consistent across *all* of these systems.
Your assertion that, should I ever use a "sufficiently accurate" system, my feelings about these IRs will suddenly change seems ludicrous to me.
But if that ever happens I'll let you know.
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
joegold said:
All I stated is that the RW EVM-12L IRs do not sound like any EVM-12L that I've ever played through.
Yet there are others, including the OP in this thread, who have stated precisely the opposite. I have no opinion, as I will never buy an IR. From anyone, including Redwirez.

I tried to give some visual, objective, support to what I am hearing.
You'd have to do better than what you've provided so far in order to support any statement regarding the differences.

I just don't like the sound of any of the IRs of yours that I've heard.
A fact that you have made abundandly clear. Many, many times. It is also a fact that my IRs sound exactly like the cabs from which they were acquired. So all that you're really saying is that you don't like those cabs. Which is fine with me, because I don't like all of them myself. I took a number of the IRs you so vehemently don't like in response to requests from others (e.g., Ed Degenaro). For free, I might add. They like them, and that's all that matters.

Lots of folks here seem to love your IRs.
Perhaps they hear something you don't. Or - much more likely IMO- you've just allowed your obvious personal dislike for me to color your judgement of everything I've contributed here. A good look in the mirror might be in order here....
 

redwire

Inspired
No apologies necessary. You're all entitled to your opinions. I have no problem with people saying they don't like them. While it's always a possibility, it doesn't mean we did something wrong just because they don't sound the way you expected.

All I can say is that the Speakerbox EVM12L IRs are "accurate", in the sense that they accurately represent that speaker, in that cabinet, through those mics, and in those positions. We tested, retested after some feedback, even swapped in another speaker of the same model with the same results. There was nothing "wrong" with our signal chain or the process. If we make a mistake, we own up to it.

It is no accident, however, that we've chosen to spend more time on the BIGBox set than the Speakerbox collection. People recognize these cabs and respond viscerally (usually positively) to them as a result. They know these cabs in real life, so they have a frame of reference by which to judge. The classics have also proven themselves over time. There's nothing "wrong" with the Speakerbox collection per se, but the "apples to apples" frame of reference is not there, the track record is not there and as a result, opinions are all over the map.

We just did the Mesa Halfback Bottom with a Black Shadow EV12L. This is a closed-back and ported cab. I think the folks that didn't like the Speakerbox version will find them more familiar. Here's a sample: SM57, on the cap, 0in. This one's too bright for my taste, but "my taste" is not figured into the process. We're going to do the top, open-backed part of the cab, too.

http://www.redwirez.com/ir/MesaHalfbackBotEV12L-SM57-Cap-0in.zip
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
Jay wrote:
It is also a fact that my IRs sound exactly like the cabs from which they were acquired.
------

I'll have to take your word on that.
But what do you mean by "exactly"?
Do they sound exactly the same as those cabs would sound to me where I'd be standing if I were playing through one of those cabs?
How do you know where I'd be standing?
Etc., etc. etc.
Even you would have to admit that there are a whole lot of variables that will be involved here in reproducing "exactly" what any particular player would hear if he were playing through one of these cabs.
---------

Jay wrote:
So all that you're really saying is that you don't like those cabs.
-------------

The stock "1 X 12 Open" cab is one of your far-field IRs, right?
What cabinet is that and what driver is in it?
I'll bet it's a speaker/cab combination that I've had at least some experience with.
It sounds nothing to me like the in-the-room experience with any 12" driver I've ever played through in an open back cabinet.
To me, it sounds like a cab that's been mic'd funny, for want of a better adjective.
That too is a fact.
I can see that it might be useful to me when mixed in with another cab that's been close mic'd though.
But on its own, to me, it just sounds odd.
----------------

Jay wrote:
much more likely IMO- you've just allowed your obvious personal dislike for me to color your judgement of everything I've contributed here.
---------

Again, you're taking this personally.
I try to give you a fresh chance every-time you and I interact here. (And it's not easy btw.)
My feelings about your IRs have absolutely nothing to do with my feelings about you.
If you ever produce an IR that I like the sound of I will be quite happy to use it to death and to sing its praises.

And my feelings about you have much more to do with the way you choose to interact with people here (including me) than they have to do with the factual content of what you actually say or with the things you produce.
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
redwire said:
I have no problem with people saying they don't like them. While it's always a possibility, it doesn't mean we did something wrong just because they don't sound the way you expected.
Absolutely on the money. Joey, you got that? :lol:
 

Jay Mitchell

Fractal Fanatic
joegold said:
Again, you're taking this personally.
Nope. You continually make statements that imply a level of technical knowledge that you do not possess. See above. Your lack of comprehension of something that runs counter to your expectations does not make it "wrong." You'd do well to learn that.
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
redwire said:
I don't have anything like a K12 here today to check that with, but based on what I'm hearing through my NS10s that sounds *much more* in the ballpark to me.
Whether it means anything or not, the freq resp as seen in the Axe-IRConverter bears this out.

I'll be very interested in hearing what the TC30 IRs of this cab/driver sound like.
Please take samples from a few more mic positions as well.

Also...
When you guys say "0 in", do you have the mic right up on (but not physically touching) the cap?
Or does "0 in" mean more like where a grille would be?
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
Jay Mitchell said:
redwire said:
I have no problem with people saying they don't like them. While it's always a possibility, it doesn't mean we did something wrong just because they don't sound the way you expected.
Absolutely on the money. Joey, you got that? :lol:
Well *something* went wrong because none of those IRs sound the way an EVM-12L actually sounds.
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
joegold said:
Again, you're taking this personally.
Jay Mitchell said:
Yep.
Jay Mitchell said:
You continually make statements that imply a level of technical knowledge that you do not possess.
I continually make statements that stress that I do not have any technical knowledge of these matters.
I continually make statements that describe my subjective personal experiences.
You keep making statements trying to invalidate my experiences.
So, until you and I hear something in remotely the same way I'll be taking everything you say about any of this with a huge grain of salt.
Jay Mitchell said:
See above. Your lack of comprehension of something that runs counter to your expectations does not make it "wrong." You'd do well to learn that.
I know what these speakers sound like.
And I know when something that purports to sound like them sounds wrong.
 

smilefan

Experienced
It tried out the Mesa Halfback w/Black Shadow IR. Sounds right.
I've played thru this cab before, and yes, it will sound very familiar
to hi-gain Mesa users. Love to get at IR package with some big
Mesa cabs using this speaker.
 
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