DT-50 as AXE Power Section

Manny Fufish

Manny Fufish

Power User
Hi Guys,
I have always been surprised more people are not going into the power section of the Line6 DT-50 amps for a very versatile real tube power section for the AxeFX... My understanding is the power section is all analog and can transform itself into the 4 major power amps, Fender, Vox, Marshall and Boogie so this seems like such a no-brainer that I must be missing something cuz I've heard of no one doing it... The 2X12 combo or 4x12 with the head must be setup for a versatile array of sounds I would expect so for those looking for analog power and cab, looking for that 'amp in the room' sound while keeping the versatility we bought the Axe for would see this as the obvious choice... Has anyone tried this? I know you can get these used for a good price these days so I'm looking at picking one up, but wanted to see if anyone has been down this road and why this isn't the obvious choice already.

Thanks!
 
It won't reconfigure with anything but the pods, there's not really any advantage for an Axe user. Plus most of us are very happy with the power amp simulation on board and do not feel the need for tube power amps.
 
Manny Fufish said:
Hi Guys,
I have always been surprised more people are not going into the power section of the Line6 DT-50 amps for a very versatile real tube power section for the AxeFX... My understanding is the power section is all analog and can transform itself into the 4 major power amps, Fender, Vox, Marshall and Boogie so this seems like such a no-brainer that I must be missing something cuz I've heard of no one doing it... The 2X12 combo or 4x12 with the head must be setup for a versatile array of sounds I would expect so for those looking for analog power and cab, looking for that 'amp in the room' sound while keeping the versatility we bought the Axe for would see this as the obvious choice... Has anyone tried this? I know you can get these used for a good price these days so I'm looking at picking one up, but wanted to see if anyone has been down this road and why this isn't the obvious choice already.

Thanks!
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Hi Manny,

I have wondered about this too?

My present setup is the Axe FX II into either:

- 2 x CLR Powered Cabs
- Fryette 2/50/2 into [2] 2x12's
- Mesa 2:90 into [2] 2x12's
- Matrix GT1000FX into [2] 2x12's

I just picked up a used Line6 Spider Value 2x12 (Bogner) with 6l6's....needed another open back 2x12 with V30's and figured this would be in the price range I was looking at and had the added benefit of the bonus power amp. I just run the Axe into the PWR AMP in and it really sounds quite amazing. I imagine the DT-50 may be similar.

Thanks,
D
 
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jlynnb1 said:
It won't reconfigure with anything but the pods, there's not really any advantage for an Axe user. Plus most of us are very happy with the power amp simulation on board and do not feel the need for tube power amps.
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I'm pretty sure that's not the case, are you sure about that?? If you run into the return of the effects loop and change the topology from Fender to Marshall to Vox, to Boogie, it should definitely take effect. These changes can also be done with midi so the MFC can send the change when you select your patch...

Don't get me wrong I run the powered CLRs and a Matrix gt1000fx into to a 4x12 and love both setups, but a configurable power section sounds like it would be awesome!!! One rig and all 4 major power sections in analog... So surprised people haven't tried it... I'll let ya know how it turns out!
 
are you sure the topology can be changed via midi? if so i stand corrected on that part....I thought it was only done via the L6 Link connection.
 
Yes, that part I am sure about, there's a PDF on the website that gives you midi values to send.

I was actually looking to get a valve power amp, and then the question becomes which one do I get? I really like the Friedman amps so I would probably go with Marshall power section. Now with this I might not have to choose!
 
From my understanding with the Line 6 link you can adjust all parameters in the power amp where’s with the midi you can only select which of the 4 modes you want to access. But you can’t for instance change the presence with the midi but you can with the Line 6 link.

So if you want to get optimum flexibility with this setup, maybe you should get yourself a PodHD to control all aspects of the power amp and also control the AFx2.

I’d make sure to purchase one of these from somewhere with a return policy though. I saw a combo shootout a little while ago that included one of the DT amps and in a blind test for which sounded best it came dead last. So it could well be that it’s a jack of all trades and master of none. And if the Marshally sound is what you’re primary after, that’s what you should get. Interesting to hearing your feedback if you do go ahead though.
 
Johan Allard said:
From my understanding with the Line 6 link you can adjust all parameters in the power amp where’s with the midi you can only select which of the 4 modes you want to access. But you can’t for instance change the presence with the midi but you can with the Line 6 link.

So if you want to get optimum flexibility with this setup, maybe you should get yourself a PodHD to control all aspects of the power amp and also control the AFx2.

I’d make sure to purchase one of these from somewhere with a return policy though. I saw a combo shootout a little while ago that included one of the DT amps and in a blind test for which sounded best it came dead last. So it could well be that it’s a jack of all trades and master of none. And if the Marshally sound is what you’re primary after, that’s what you should get. Interesting to hearing your feedback if you do go ahead though.
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You can actually change all of the topology controls from MIDI (there's a shit ton and many of which are Analog relay controls, see below) so I can change everything from the MFC, I already did my homework on all of that. That's actually why I want to get one of these things and why I was so surprised I was the first. You can change all the analog values in the Power Section via MIDI and it gets pretty in depth. The preamp is Line6 digital stuff but I have the Axe for that so this is best of both worlds. Maybe one day Fractal will build an amp like this but in the meantime... I just didn't want to be tied to one power section, that's the beauty of the Axe is its flexability. I like FRFR with the Axe Power Amp modeling but there's something about having an amp in the room. The Matrix is good but I think Tube is better there. I love the Marshall tones like the Friedman, but I also LOVE clean and early breakup Fender tones. I don't want to get a Marshall tube power section and not be able to get my Fender tones with a Fender power section.

BTW, what amp shootout did you see? Do you have a link as I would be interested in that. I saw a recent one from Andersons but that was a Spider I believe, not a DT-50. The DT50 and the wireless systems are the only things from Line6 I actually like haha...

Midi Chart.jpg
 
Before the Axe Fx I had the 'dream rig'. The one negative thing about the DT50 was the popping when changing the topology, but maybe I'll give this a try before I sell it.
 
I can’t find the shootout now. It could have been in a Guitarist magazine I read while flying the last time. Who cares what reviewers think anyway though - if it works for you then that’s all that counts.

Personally though I hope that Fractal never go down this route as I believe that it’s a step in the wrong direction. I want the AFx2 to be all that is inside the digital realm. As soon as we step out in an analog world, a lot of the benefits has been lost as we now have to deal with humidity, temperature, sunlight, age, ... affecting the tubes. There’s also the fact that tubes are individual, no two tubes will ever sound the same. On top of that everything will sound different depending on the volume you play at and I can’t play the exact same thing in my headphones anymore as the tubes needs “cooking” to produce the same sound as live, which they inevitably never do anyway. So for me even if moving to an analog power amp would improve the sound when playing live overall it’s just not worth it overall. And I’d still be very interested to hear how you’re going with this experiment :)
 
Johan Allard said:
I can’t find the shootout now. It could have been in a Guitarist magazine I read while flying the last time. Who cares what reviewers think anyway though - if it works for you then that’s all that counts.

Personally though I hope that Fractal never go down this route as I believe that it’s a step in the wrong direction. I want the AFx2 to be all that is inside the digital realm. As soon as we step out in an analog world, a lot of the benefits has been lost as we now have to deal with humidity, temperature, sunlight, age, ... affecting the tubes. There’s also the fact that tubes are individual, no two tubes will ever sound the same. On top of that everything will sound different depending on the volume you play at and I can’t play the exact same thing in my headphones anymore as the tubes needs “cooking” to produce the same sound as live, which they inevitably never do anyway. So for me even if moving to an analog power amp would improve the sound when playing live overall it’s just not worth it overall. And I’d still be very interested to hear how you’re going with this experiment :)
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I'm SO with you there man for playing at night and headphones or recording or out to PA there's NOTHING like the Axe! I LOVE it for all of those uses it's absolutely perfect, and there's nothing better! It sounds like you're in the control room in the studio and there's a miked up amp in the next room and it does that perfectly!

I also really like the sound of an amp sitting next to me in the same room. There's an old classic vibe I get sitting next to my amp. When you run through a valve amp into real speakers you get that same vibe.

The way I would see the axe amp, it would completely work like the Axe does today, when you use the XLR outs out the back you would be enabling power amp modeling and IR modeling. When you run through the main amp it would utilize the analog amp and use the speakers built in adjusting for known variables cuz they would of course know what they put in it. So this would be the best of both worlds. Two signal chains, one to the PA and one through the amp on stage. Best of both worlds and you lose nothing. You sound great through the front of house you also get the feeling of an amp behind you. Not to mention, for us old guys who like to reminisce, sitting in the den with a cup of coffee playing through all the little combos we ever wanted to own! Haha these are good days my friends!
 
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Please Read - I think I'm on to something towards the end...

Please Read - I think I'm on to something towards the end...

The more I think about this, the more I think this would be the ultimate Axe product handling all scenarios... An amp like this would blend all of the scenarios where an Axe-FX can be used and lose no versatility. There would still be a market for rack mounted units for sure, but for the guy in his house or on the stage that wants to record and gig and listen with and without headphones, this would be the ultimate! What do you guys think?
 
Well, as soon as anything is different you will see wild discussions going on in the forum like “when I play the Bogner XTC blue through the Fractal tube powered monitor it sounds exactly like how remembered it but when I record direct from the Axe Fx 2 it’s all lifeless and dull, how can I capture that proper tube sound when recording?”.

This would obviously also happens if Cliff said that he used 24 carat gold on the output 1 connectors but for some reason output 2 had 23.92 carat gold, but stating that there’s no audible or measurable difference. You’d still see people posting comparison recordings and “blind tests” and everything. If there’s ANY reason to doubt anything, people will.

I hope and firmly believe that they will never build a tube amp. I think that building a tube amp would possibly be the worst thing that they could do marketing wise for the company as it would be “admission of guilt” that the Axe Fx 2 is not as good as a tube amp. And from then on anyone who’s contemplating buying an Axe Fx will get the counter argument - not even Fractal themselves think that you can get proper tone without tubes.

If Fractal made another product, my hopes would be: Modelled guitar with builtin wireless (like a Pro Variax), foot controller only version of the Axe Fx, Bluetooth enabled Axe Fx with iPad controller, more versions of the MFC - both a mini MFC with maybe 8 buttons and also an expandable MFC with added buttons and builtin expression pedals as expansion units, combo version of the AFx2 integrated into something like an active CLR. A lot of the weight actually comes from the rack chassis, which could be removed if placed inside another unit like the CLR. So a CLR neo/AFx2 combo could come in less than 20Kg/40lb. Coupled with a mini MFC that would be the ultimate grab and go rig. And if you place the Axe Fx on the top back of the unit, you’d only see the speaker from the front (I never look at the screen of the Axe Fx at a gig anyway) and you could get a very vintage looking rig, now that’s the best of both worlds to me :)

And even if I think it would be a very bad idea for Fractal to build a tube amp, I still want to hear how you go with the Line 6 one :)
 
Actually, when I think about this again, I think we can align our hopes and dreams :)

I hope that Fractal makes an Axe FX for amp builders. A version that can be used to easily integrate the Axe Fx into like an active CLR, or if you want to step away from FRFR something like a Matrix NL with a Matrix solid state power amp, or without amp modelling in the Axe Fx a version with different tube configurations like the Line 6 DT. Yes, someone could already do this today but I think that weight would be a limiting factor, and removing the (very heavy) rack chassis would void the warranty so something which was purpose built to create a cool Axe enabled combo would be needed.

Hmmm, as I just wrote this - one of the big limitations that you’d get with the Line 6 DT is that you’ve lost any chance of using FRFR so you could never enable speaker simulation and would therefore be stuck with whatever physical speakers that’s in your Line 6 DT. Different speakers would have a far greater impact of the overall sound than different tube configurations (easily tested by changing IR’s vs changing tube type in the advanced section in the amp block).
 
Hey guys, sorry for necrobumping :) For like 5 years I am a happy user of DT50 112 amp (should have gone for 212, but back then I would even go for DT25), and for a year or so I have got an AxeFX II Mark II :) I have updated the DT50 firmware so that I am now able to change things in Power Section which are not available using physical switches. I am using an awesome piece of software called DT Edit, which is open source, so everything what it can do can also be done via MIDI programming.
So, in power amp section I have got 5 switches for each channel (A and B):
- ClassA/B <-> Class A (same as on front panel)
- Pentode <-> Triode (same as on front panel)
- Boost ON/OFF (DT50 only feature, not available from front panel)
- PIV HIGH/LOW (DT50 only feature, not available from front panel)
- TIGHT/SMOOTH (DT50 only feature, not available from front panel)
No idea what they really do, but when I click them I can hear actual analogue components switching (which sucks during songs, but come on, it's analogue :))
Recently I started to finally play my DT50 on decent volume (Master on 12 o'clock), where the power section really shines. So I am going to try this set up tomorrow.
I am going to first test the following:
- bypass preamp section of DT50, and test if changing preamp parameters and topologies on DT50 does anything to the power section. I am now assuming that I can only affect sound of power section using 5 switches I mentioned, and not by changing preamp of cab simulation in DT50
So, eventually, my question is, has anyone tried anything like this already?
 
Hey there! I have tried using DT50 as a power amp yesterday for an Axe FX. Well, I am sort of disappointed. It seems like when I bypass DT50 pre-amp by simply plugging into a FX Return, the "master volume" know on DT50 does not do anything at all anymore, only the FX Loop Volume on the back of the amp is affecting the volume of power amp.. And this knob really feels like volume, not like some sort of power amp "gain", the tubes do not break that easily even when loud as hell.. In contrast, when not using AxeFX (when using DT50 pre-amp and even with FX Loop Effects), the "master volume" knob starts to break tubes nicely after 10 o'clock.
Yes, these switches I was talking about do affect the sound, but not as much as I would.
Also, changing the emulated amps on DT50 (or topologies) does change the sound of power section, but also not drastically.
It seems like DT50 does not really use power amp distortion that much, it simply adds to pre-amp distortion somehow emulating kind of "power amp gain" when turning the MV.. So yesterday I was not able to get any decent distorted sound out of it. Clean "Fender Twin" pre-amp from Axe with DT50 power section (all 4 topologies) was okay, but not better than whatever Line6 emulates..
Am I doing something wrong?..
 
I have a DT50 at our rehearsal space, and almost always run my AX8 out 2 (via fx loop, pre a cab block) to the Return of the DT50. I set topology/mode to I(one) I believe. I also sit a CLR on top of the DT, and run out 1 with cab sims to that. I use my out level knobs on the AX8 to balance the two. I find the speaker combo and open back in the DT50 is great for this purpose, and running the CLR blended along side, just adds that killer extra something (The Fractals sounds and feels soo good through a CLR these days..). The real amp cab(DT) gives the room that 3D oomph. These are the best tones and flexibility I've ever had with that combo. But I do dial all my tones at home on the CLR's at gig level. Going this route, when we gig I always give the sound man my direct out 1 (also CLR) , and do whatever the venue calls for, for stage monitoring. Use the Axe for your preamp, and leave the poweramp to the DT.. Get gain from the Axe, leave the poweramp modeling on. Your mileage may vary on poweramp modeling on or off though... But I've never had an issue using the DT as a power section, its been plug and play, and just sounds great for multiple tones with an AX8 (two bands, same rehearsal space).
 
Paulinfl said:
I have a DT50 at our rehearsal space, and almost always run my AX8 out 2 (via fx loop, pre a cab block) to the Return of the DT50. I set topology/mode to I(one) I believe. I also sit a CLR on top of the DT, and run out 1 with cab sims to that. I use my out level knobs on the AX8 to balance the two. I find the speaker combo and open back in the DT50 is great for this purpose, and running the CLR blended along side, just adds that killer extra something (The Fractals sounds and feels soo good through a CLR these days..). The real amp cab(DT) gives the room that 3D oomph. These are the best tones and flexibility I've ever had with that combo. But I do dial all my tones at home on the CLR's at gig level. Going this route, when we gig I always give the sound man my direct out 1 (also CLR) , and do whatever the venue calls for, for stage monitoring. Use the Axe for your preamp, and leave the poweramp to the DT.. Get gain from the Axe, leave the poweramp modeling on. Your mileage may vary on poweramp modeling on or off though... But I've never had an issue using the DT as a power section, its been plug and play, and just sounds great for multiple tones with an AX8 (two bands, same rehearsal space).
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Hmm, I just realized I did not set the topology to high-gain one when I tried the Bogner Uber preamp from AxeFx into power section of DT50. :astonished: No wonder in sounded like shit :laughing:
 
Well, yesterday I spent 4 hours trying this and that and that's what I found out about DT50:
  • one can disable AMP and CAB simulation in DT50 completely, then all the preamp settings are ignored and only power amp settings make difference in sound;
  • the Master Volume knob in front of DT50 is not linear, whereas the FX Return Volume knob seems to be much more linear. This has probably been done to widen the sweet spot. When preamp is bypassed (see previous bullet), MV on 12 o'clock corresponds roughly to FX Ret Volume on 2 o'clock. I tested this by literally plugging the guitar into front of the amp and then unplugging and plugging it into FX Return.
  • There are "Voicings" and "Topologies". "Voicings" are basically presets which store complete chain from Preamp to Power-amp settings, whilst "Topologies" are different-sounding power-amp analogue states.
  • Although "Boost ON/OFF" pushes the 12ax7 in preamp, this has a lot of impact to power-amp sound even when AMP and CAB simulated are set to "NONE".
This is the picture of DTEdit Software I am using:
screen2.1.jpg
 
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