Wish Doubler

pauly

Fractal Fanatic
HI,

There are 'sort of' wishes for a doubler here. however they are buried away under obscure subjects, or within other wishes.
I thought I'd just make clear that I'd love to see a dedicated doubler block that has the forethought, complexity, quality, and richness of all Cliffs offerings.
I can create a 'sort of doubler' using a very close delay, with modulation etc however that doesn't quite cut it.
Enough said
Thanks
Pauly
 
Hi Chris,

A block that mimics the act of playing the same line twice effectively.
With a delay, we can creat a doubler ‘like” effect by have the delay very short, with zero feedback, and modulating the delay a little with various methods. With a pitch shifter we can do the same with very close modulated pitch, but both approaches do not achieve the quality (I hope) a purpose built doubler with Cliff’s touch.

Thanks
Pauly


What exactly do you mean by “doubler”?
 
HI,

There are 'sort of' wishes for a doubler here. however they are buried away under obscure subjects, or within other wishes.
I thought I'd just make clear that I'd love to see a dedicated doubler block that has the forethought, complexity, quality, and richness of all Cliffs offerings.
I can create a 'sort of doubler' using a very close delay, with modulation etc however that doesn't quite cut it.
Enough said
Thanks
Pauly
Here’s the pushback … what are you willing to give up in order to have an “intelligent” doubler?

Every request for additional “stuff” comes at a cost, in memory space and CPU or DSP.

So, think about what you want to give up, because there’s finite memory space and CPU.

Enough said.
 
Here’s the pushback … what are you willing to give up in order to have an “intelligent” doubler?

Every request for additional “stuff” comes at a cost, in memory space and CPU or DSP.

So, think about what you want to give up, because there’s finite memory space and CPU.

Enough said.
How about leaving it up to fractal to make statements like this! This is a wish list item. MANY things that seemed impossible have been accomplished by Cliff TOO MANY times to count.
 
Here’s the pushback … what are you willing to give up in order to have an “intelligent” doubler?
The Axe-FX was designed with future expansion in mind. New features can, and have been, added without giving up existing features. Especially algorithmic enhancements like this. In any case, it's just a wish. Cliff's a smart guy and he's perfectly capable of prioritizing tasks without somebody telling him what the tradeoffs are.
 
Huh?
If I put 19 blocks into a preset and it ends up flooding the available resources, I delete or modify until the issue is resolved. We are not giving up anything by having the option of a block that effectively doubles.
Thanks
Pauly

Here’s the pushback … what are you willing to give up in order to have an “intelligent” doubler?

Every request for additional “stuff” comes at a cost, in memory space and CPU or DSP.

So, think about what you want to give up, because there’s finite memory space and CPU.

Enough said.
 
The Axe-FX was designed with future expansion in mind. New features can, and have been, added without giving up existing features. Especially algorithmic enhancements like this. In any case, it's just a wish. Cliff's a smart guy and he's perfectly capable of prioritizing tasks without somebody telling him what the tradeoffs are.
agreed - don't mean to pile on, but since when does posting a wish require one to id something to give up? 🤔
 
I have Mimiq and I think what it's doing well is the randomness of delay'd 2nd voice. Though it can do up to 3 voices with stereo in/out for a kind of chorusy thing, I just use it mono w 1 voice on one side only @100% wet to get that randomized variation on one side which I think is all the enhancer would need/need more of, to make it great (the tightness control on Mimiq controls how random and how far the generated voice will vary from the dry). I normally run it after the amp block but I think it sounds slightly better running it as described above into one side of hard panned dual amp blocks to most realistically "mimiq" a 2nd guitar player playing through a separate amp and his her level of accuracy (drunkenness) determined by the tightness control and with the 2nd amp responding differently to that than the "unmimiq'd" amp on the other side.
 
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How about leaving it up to fractal to make statements like this! This is a wish list item. MANY things that seemed impossible have been accomplished by Cliff TOO MANY times to count.
Fractal has made statements like this before. It’s always a balancing act.
 
+ 1 Although you can achieve quite similar results to the Mimiq already by combining a parallel variable delay with the dry signal, and then constantly panning the dry and wet signals so the sound keeps "landing" in different spots of the stereo image using envelope to modulate the delay and panning. @Bakerman made a great double tracker patch for the Axe II a few years ago too.

However, the problem with pretty much every doubler effect or pedal out there is how they sum when listening in mono. Let's say you run the dry signal into the front end of one amp and the doubler effect 100% wet into the front end of the second amp, with both amps hard panned. What might appear to be a convincing stereo image can end up sounding like a modulated, very fast slap back delay, or something that resembles a light flange, when summed to mono.

A more realistic way to achieve a double tracked effect is to actually use different pickups at the same time, but with each pickup going to it's own output. This works really well if combining a magnetic pickup with something like a GK pickup going into a VG-99 or SY 1000, so that the 'doubled" modelled guitar picks up vibrations from the strings at a different point to the magnetic pickup. You can also do this with bridge and neck pickups wired to a stereo jack, but that isn't so great if you want the doubled sound of a bridge pickup.

You could also try it with a triple coil humbucker and send two coils to one side and the third coil to the other, although all these coils would have very close pickup points of the string vibrations so i'm not sure how wide the stereo image would be.
 
New features can, and have been, added without giving up existing features.
I didn't say anything about "existing features", it's about what could be done with the memory used by that addition if the next great thing came along later that needed the space. They won't take away something, they just might find it very difficult to implement it.

We're not privy to how much free space remains with the current lineup of blocks, but however much that is, it's a finite amount and can't be added too, unlike a general computer, so we need to remember that requests for new features result in consumption of remaining memory. Like someone once said, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." :cool:

Moving on…

I saw you worked on creating such a thing, and said we're lacking key parts to make it happen, which is what I thought when I was trying to figure out such a thing.

If we could reuse parts of existing effects, I thought the Pitch Dual Detune would be useful, as would the Enhancer, so something that blended those two, with a touch of fast Autoswell, along with something that triggers changes in delay times or lines when a note is picked, or during the space between notes as @Admin M@ said, and can alternate between up to three delay lines, and, added together, those might be sufficient to imitate the Mimiq. It seems like it'd be pretty CPU hungry if turned into its own effect, but it'd probably be more efficient than trying to wire together separate parts in the grid.

A friend of mine took the fast route and stuck a Mimiq into the loop of his AX8. I think it's an "interesting" effect but don't think I'd use it enough to want one or even have it in a preset, but other people's mileage will vary.

For people who haven't searched these are useful reading:
 
However, the problem with pretty much every doubler effect or pedal out there is how they sum when listening in mono.
True, but you could apply some waveshaping to one side of the Mimiq preset I linked above to help with that. But...mono support isn’t nearly as important these days as it used to be. It’s getting to be downright rare for people to listen to music in mono. Even phone speakers are stereo now :).
 
However, the problem with pretty much every doubler effect or pedal out there is how they sum when listening in mono. Let's say you run the dry signal into the front end of one amp and the doubler effect 100% wet into the front end of the second amp, with both amps hard panned. What might appear to be a convincing stereo image can end up sounding like a modulated, very fast slap back delay, or something that resembles a light flange, when summed to mono.
Definitely. It sounds icky in mono. And a stereo feed to FOH can end up getting forced back to mono by the engineer.



I went with Keeley's 30MS pedal instead, which sounds great in stereo and sounds good in mono. It's not as smart but I wasn't about to carry around two amps.

 
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