Do you want a great sound for yourself or the audience?

[Jay Mitchell]

This has more to do with the level of professionalism of the player than with anything else. It is a fact that you will never encounter a performance situation in which everything is perfect. There will always be distractions - tiny bandstand, poor stage and/or venue acoustics, other players not playing what you expect to hear at any given time, gear not sounding exactly as you expect it to, etc., etc. A huge part of the skillset that good musicians all acquire is the ability to reliably produce good results in suboptimal performance environments, which is to say, pretty much everywhere you will ever perform. That includes those situations in which you perceive that your "tone" is not exactly what you want it to be.

As for "quality" of tone, that is entirely subjective. It has been my experience, going back to the late 1960s, that it is possible to produce a "good" sound on stage as well as in the audience. The two goals - hearing what you want to hear, and having the audience hear very similar sounds - are not now and have never been mutually exclusive. It does take some time and effort on the part of everyone involved to accomplish those goals, but they are achievable.

With my Axe-Fx/FRFR rig, I can hear exactly what I want to hear on stage, and I can easily see to it that the audience hears the same thing. It still may be the case that my taste does not coincide with that of everyone who is listening, but I know they're hearing basically the same guiitar sound I hear.

 

[rsf1977]

Even if you have a direct signal to the FOH isn't the sound guy going to tweak things to fit the mix anyway or at least what he feels fits well?

 

[hippietim]

Even if you have a direct signal to the FOH isn't the sound guy going to tweak things to fit the mix anyway or at least what he feels fits well?

Of course. You give him the best signal you can and hope he's not going to fuck up your sound. But that's true of a mic in front of a cab. Keep in mind that even if your FOH speakers are exactly the same as your stage FRFR rig the sound man is likely going to need to tweak EQ for the room, the mix, the drum mics, etc.

The sound produced by the band out of the PA is all that matters to me. However, part of that sound is me playing well and part of me playing well is me interacting with my guitar tone and it feeling good to me and I also react to the crowd so it has to sound good to them. If this is sounding circular, that's because it is.

So the answer to the question is it's both because they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[joegold]

I've been following a lot of discussions on the topic of FRFR and 4x12"' cabs.
My main concern has always been to get the best sound possible and transfer that to the FOH as good as possible.
A 4x12" cab may sound great behind you, 3d, moving air and all that.
But when it's miked and sent to the FOH, that's what the audience hears
If you want the audience to hear what you do coming out of the cabs, then you should stack up a bunch of 4x12"'s on either side of the stage and direct them so that everyone can hear the same thing.
If you have them behind you, the people who are standing right in front of them will hear it clearly, but since these cabs are very directional, those who are not in the direct line of the cab won't.
When you mike a cab, you'll only get the sound of one speaker and the microphone will colour the sound as well.
Now when you use the Axe-fx with a FRFR system, you have the best chance to hear exactly or as close to as what the audience is hearing.
In my humble opinion, this is how it should be.
And I truly feel the Axe-FX excels in this.
Granted, a FRFR-monitor won't give you the same feel as a 4x12" cab, but the thought the audience are hearing your sound is you want it tops that.

I'm the total opposite.
Maybe it's because I play mostly jazz.
I've always been concerned with the blend on stage with the other instruments.
And if I don't like the sound *I'm* hearing I can't play as well as I want to.
If I'm playing a venue that's large enough that my amp has to be mic'd then I've always felt that it's the job of the guy controlling the mic to try and translate what he hears me doing on stage to the people in the larger audience.
Of course it's rare to get a really good sound man, but that's the only way I know how to play.

These days, with loud rock and pop bands, it seems to me that the art of getting a sound *on stage* has been lost. Everybody's hoping it will all come together in the mains. If I had to play like that for an extended period of time I'd probably give up playing music.

 

[quasimono]

I'd also go with the opinions of hunter and joegold for example here..
For me, FRFR doesn't do it, because i usually don't play "venues", where the guitars are even miced at all!
So in conclusion, as i don't get to hear my guitar over FOH, neither does the audience!

I use my trusty and great sounding 4x12" with a good poweramp (tubes prefered too!) because this rig is my only source of sound for the whole place at most times!

When we play larger spots occasionaly, i can just hang a mic in front of my cab and also know it sounds good, because it's my sound! Maybe i'll program all my patches using the FX-Loop before cab thing and give the sound guy a direct out instead of the miced cab signal, but i still depend on the sound guy. He is the last thing in the chain, so he can still fuck up or glorify any sound he gets from me. Think about it!

I am still thinking about getting a good farfield IR from my own cab to use this in all my patches though.. So, if needed, i could go straight FOH or into the mixing desk in a studio situation with my very own sound.

Now go and play!

 

[gtrdave]

I think it depends a lot on the system. I have played more than a dozen times at this place in San Diego called The Viejas "Dreamcatcher Lounge" and the sound system and lighting is over $1,500,000.00 (did I get enough zero's there..LOL) and my mic'd cab sounded incredible there. They have 10 x 18" subs on the floor. Wow what a kick that place is to play. Their monitors are the best quality I have ever used but I always chose my amp to be the guitar monitor for my side of the stage. I think it would be interesting to play there again with the Axe. I'm pretty sure I could leave the amp at home there. My old band owned 2 Mackie 1232 colums and 4 Mackie Fusion 18" subs (no cheap system) but when I would go out in front and listen to the mic'd cab it was just ok never fantastic like Viejas. I know the Axe cab simulator would have been more consistent and more controlable for most of our gigs with the Mackie. Wish I had the Axe a few years ago. I hope there will be a good FRFR solution that will give the feel of a great cab on stage. I think there is one out there (I've been following the talk on these things for a while which scares me. I'm gonna try to not look 'cuz once you start looking it's all over... :lol: Right now the FBT Verve Ma sounds even better than the Atomic with the 100% dispersion and tilt back design. But I'm not looking...oh there I go again. :geek:

 

[rdomain]

For me, I love the quad box for huge guitar tones and it has to sound good on stage for me to perform my best. I've yet to perform live with the Axefx but I'm planning on feeding a di feed to the pa with all sims on and my regular live tone (minus cab sims) to my quad and power amp.
Best of both worlds. :mrgreen:

For more intimate music, the quad is not necessary. eg. jazzy, experimental, ambient, whatever. The last 2 gigs I did were just guitar to laptop and straight to the PA. (not including fx hardware)

 

[mitch236]

There's no reason you can't have both but if it really came down to what is more important, it would be the audience. After all, without the audience, you would just be practicing in the garage!!! That's why when you have a good soundman, you want to keep the stage volume as low as possible.

Therefore, for me, using a FRFR monitor solution is the best. It allows me to direct the guitar sound right at ME and away from the FOH mix. I get great interation with my guitar and the audience gets a good mix.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

For me, FRFR doesn't do it, because i usually don't play "venues", where the guitars are even miced at all!

For me, FRFR "does it" precisely because I play mostly that type of gig. With a good FRFR system and good IRs, I can produce the sounds of multiple amp/cab combinations from a single rig. No guitar cab can do that.

So in conclusion, as i don't get to hear my guitar over FOH, neither does the audience!

That has nothing to do with the choice between FRFR and a conventional cab. It has to do with your ability to produce sounds with specific types of equipment. If you have not managed to get an FRFR system to work to your satisfaction, then it stands to reason you will choose another route. That does not mean an FRFR system does not have the capacity to do what you say you want, however. It only means that you have not managed to realize that capacity yourself.

I use my trusty and great sounding 4x12" with a good poweramp (tubes prefered too!) because this rig is my only source of sound for the whole place at most times!

If I had to drag around something that large and heavy just to get "my sound," I'd quit playing.

When we play larger spots occasionaly, i can just hang a mic in front of my cab and also know it sounds good, because it's my sound!

Uhh, no. A mic right in front of a speaker does not capture "your sound" the way you hear it on stage. You are in this case completely at the mercy of the sound man's skills or lack of same.

 

[hippietim]

The last thing I want is a FRFR quad box. I can't think of a single reason to want one. I'd much rather have monitors strategically placed on stage.

If I bring out a quad box, it's going to be a real guitar cab with my Bogner Fish rig. Otherwise, I'll take my compact 12ma and have more headroom :lol:

 

[quasimono]

Wow Jay Mitchell!

For me, FRFR doesn't do it, because i usually don't play "venues", where the guitars are even miced at all!

For me, FRFR "does it" precisely because I play mostly that type of gig. With a good FRFR system and good IRs, I can produce the sounds of multiple amp/cab combinations from a single rig. No guitar cab can do that.

You are right, and i was not precise enough. (Not a native speaker here)
What i meant to say is rather that going direct FOH for the audience sound doesn't do it for me.
I bet FRFR is similarly capable of making a great single sound source, but you'd need the good enough speakers!
You mention the crucial point regarding FRFR yourself:

With a good FRFR system and good IRs..

Good IRs are delivered with the Axe-Fx, but a good enough FRFR system costs a lot of bucks, and as i already have a very nice sounding cab, and i also do not have that lot of money to spare (thank you taxes!), i chose this given road. And it works for me. Sure would be nice to have two FBT Verves or something, or even two of your custom cabinets, but neither of those are in my price range right now..
And a $500 FRFR speaker just does not sound good enough as my single source of sound, i tested those kind of speakers already.

Btw, in a live setting, i don't think you really need to have all those different amp/cab combinations..
Sure a nice thing to have in a studio setting, but i've never seen guys changing real amps and cabs during a show..
But that's just my 2 cents m8!

So in conclusion, as i don't get to hear my guitar over FOH, neither does the audience!

That has nothing to do with the choice between FRFR and a conventional cab.

You are right. It doesn't.

It has to do with your ability to produce sounds with specific types of equipment. If you have not managed to get an FRFR system to work to your satisfaction, then it stands to reason you will choose another route. That does not mean an FRFR system does not have the capacity to do what you say you want, however. It only means that you have not managed to realize that capacity yourself.

You are wrong. I fully grasp the potential of FRFR systems, thank you.
See my point above about these things being rather pricey. Someone buy me a good FRFR system and i will use it with the axe-fx immediately!
I chose the "trusted 4x12" cab + poweramp" route, because these parts are what's available to me, and the rather inexpensive PA speakers (are these real FRFRs anyway??) we have in our rehearsal room sound rather bland compared to the real guitar cab.

I use my trusty and great sounding 4x12" with a good poweramp (tubes prefered too!) because this rig is my only source of sound for the whole place at most times!

If I had to drag around something that large and heavy just to get "my sound," I'd quit playing.

You lazy guy you!
Btw, i believe that my sound is in my fingers (and my guitars) mostly, not in the amplifying equipment.. so is yours too i might think!
So just let me carry the stuff i own, it also keeps me in good shape.

When we play larger spots occasionaly, i can just hang a mic in front of my cab and also know it sounds good, because it's my sound!

Uhh, no. A mic right in front of a speaker does not capture "your sound" the way you hear it on stage.

Damn right! Partly.. I could have said ".., i can just hang a mic in front of my cab and also know it sounds as good as it gets,.."
I mean in times before the Axe-Fx, this was the way to go when playing live, right? Put a mic in front of the cab and let the sound man do his thing for the FOH sound. Why should this not work now??

You are in this case completely at the mercy of the sound man's skills or lack of same.

But i am exactly so, if i fed him a direct out sound from the axe-fx, or ain't i?
Who says, that the current sound man will not mess with the signal fed from my axe-fx direct?

 

[fandyboy]

In my humble opinion you will hear a more accurate representation of you FOH sound with a FRFR monitoring setup than with a mic'd cab. When using a cab what you hear on stage is not the mic'd cab but the real cab, therefore it's not what people out front are hearing. You CAN get a good representation of your mic'd cab sound by getting a monitor feed but this is usually a luxury in small venues. It all depends on how loud your cab vs monitor mix your mic'd cab.

I hope that makes sense.

Yikes!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

as i already have a very nice sounding cab, and i also do not have that lot of money to spare (thank you taxes!), i chose this given road. And it works for me.

That clarifies matters very well. It was my impression that you believed FRFR to be lacking, but it turns out that your choice was largely driven by economics and convenience. It would appear that we are in agreement.

the rather inexpensive PA speakers (are these real FRFRs anyway??)

No.

You lazy guy you!

I've dragged enough Hammond B3s up narrow stairwells to suffice for this lifetime and the next. I won't be carting huge cabs any more. If they are called for, say, for the sake of appearance, then the promoter and/or venue are welcome to rent them and place them on stage. I'll be carrying my compact FRFR rig and the Axe-Fx.

But i am exactly so, if i fed him a direct out sound from the axe-fx, or ain't i?

Much less so. If the signal is from a cab mic, it must have EQ applied, even if the house system is perfectly neutral, in order to make it sound as much as possible like your stage sound. If it is a direct feed, no compensatory EQ is required.

Who says, that the current sound man will not mess with the signal fed from my axe-fx direct?

If it's someone with whom I have not worked before, I let him know prior to setup that he will receive a fully equalized, line level, balanced feed from my stage rig. Most sound guys love to hear that, as it means there is one less set of tasks for them to deal with.

 

[hippietim]

If it's someone with whom I have not worked before, I let him know prior to setup that he will receive a fully equalized, line level, balanced feed from my stage rig. Most sound guys love to hear that, as it means there is one less set of tasks for them to deal with.

And don't forget to bring a ruler to smack his hand when he starts futzing with the EQ on the deck... :lol:

 

[quasimono]

That clarifies matters very well. It was my impression that you believed FRFR to be lacking, but it turns out that your choice was largely driven by economics and convenience. It would appear that we are in agreement.

Agreed!

I've dragged enough Hammond B3s up narrow stairwells to suffice for this lifetime and the next. I won't be carting huge cabs any more. If they are called for, say, for the sake of appearance, then the promoter and/or venue are welcome to rent them and place them on stage. I'll be carrying my compact FRFR rig and the Axe-Fx.

Oh, i hear you m8! In my other band (where i am the bassplayer), i always have to help our "so 60's" keyboarder carry around his Leslie cabinet, organs and mellotron.. :roll:

Much less so. If the signal is from a cab mic, it must have EQ applied, even if the house system is perfectly neutral, in order to make it sound as much as possible like your stage sound. If it is a direct feed, no compensatory EQ is required.

Ok, that makes sense. That is, because the mic is so close to the cab and therefore the signal is overly bright, right?

Btw, i got in contact with the german distributor of your speaker (systems) a few weeks ago and asked in on a price quote.. Clearly not targeted at the end-consumer market!
These seem to be exceptionally well made speakers / cabinets though, he was full of praise..

 

[North]

I just felt like saying I treasure having Jay around this neighborhood..

 

[gtrdave]

I've been using an oversized Mesa Boogie 2x12 ported slant cab for the last 6-7 years and it's kind of like the best of both worlds. Used to have a 1960 Marshall 4x12 with vintage 25's but sold it. Definately a bigger footprint and difficult to get my stage volume up without saturating the stage. I do see bands play with their half stacks dirrected at the audience and mic'd and I think it sounds good but I'm sure the sound guys have a rough night and I'm listening right in front of the amp not to one side of the stage or the other. I usually run my 2x12 cab from the side (accross stage) dirrected at me. It has a great slant to the cab and works just like the 4x12 slant without the footprint on stage volume. My onstage volume isn't that high (mostly for my monitoring) and the rest of the band get's a monitor feed or the in-ear mix. This keeps the volume down on stage so I don't fight the PA. It is never a perfect system but my sound on stage is exactly what I like. I'm a feel player and I really like the sound to be as good as possible or I don't usually play as well. That is something I've had to come to grips with as a musician and have had to compromize stage sound for the overall mix of the band and soundguy requests. I have become a better player by using in-ear monitoring and lowering my stage volume. In ear monitors reveal every inperfection in your playing that you wouldn't normally hear. So you start playing better and not making so many mistakes IMO.

I've seen alot of musicians have to gig with not so ideal on stage sound and still sound great though. For instance I help stage hand for Spirit West Coast production line on the main stage (huge outdoor concert each year at the San Diego Fair grounds) and each band (Toby Mac, Kutless, Third Day, News Boys etc..) has their choice of what amp to use and how we set up their stage. Without exception we set up every guitarist 4x12 cabs, Vox amps, Fender etc... facing behind the band facing away from the audience (backwards facing cabs) where the sound is dirrected behind the band (facing behind stage) and ofcource mic'd. In only a few smaller band cases we faced the amps accross stage as I like it personally. I know this is a bit different than what were talking about because in clubs you don't bounce the cab off the back walls (that would be horrible). This is different at an outdoor large venue, but my point is that the only way these guitar players heard their sound is through in-ears and on stage monitors. The guitars didn't really sound that great on stage but it sounded killer FOH. All the bands sounded killer and had to deal with inperfect stage sound issues. I think the Axe would really shine in this situation to get a better stage sound with FRFR stage monitors and in ear monitors while keeping the stage volume down. This is one reason why the Axe has made so much scence to me from the beginning. I really think the Axe is revolutionary in it's ability to deliver a great FRFR amp sound on stage and deliver a better than mic'd cab sound for the audience. It still blows my mind that I used to carry an 8 space rack, a huge double tier pedal board, the heavy 2x12 and 50 lb tube head and I can get the same sound mic'd through a PA with a 2 space rack mount and midi pedal. I tell everyone I lost about 250 lbs of gear and haven't sacraficed my tone at all. That's a great thing! I do still like the power of the tube amp so I will continue to use it for larger gigs and run accross stage like I like it. Nothing wrong with that. I just run the Axe dirrectly to FOH as well and keep the amp volume down. I'm just glad I don't have to haul the huge pedal board and 8 space rack arround any more.

BTW... I am very interested in finding out about some of the Global Eq settings that some of you have worked on for FOH (specific setting for the Global EQ1). This is probably a whole nother topic and I know that it has been discussed before. I'm finding that I've been having to have the sound men turn down the Mids and up the Bass for some of the smaller venues I've been playing (FOH). I would prefer to come with my own Global EQ setting and tell them to leave everything flat but I don't always have the chance to get out in front of the PA. I know once I get that part dialed in, the Axe will be as good or better than a mic'd cab. I've found it changes a bit from PA to PA but I'm starting to listen for when things are out of whack and ask the sound man for adjustments. I'd have the same problem with my amp mic'd just wouldn't hear the issues as much with more stage volume. I'm kind of looking to find out what some of you run your Global EQ's at for the average smaller venue?