Do i need a power conditioner when i play live?

Savrot said:
I really like the price on that one, although, you have to explain what a power strip is. :confounded:
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It's a thing you plug into an outlet that gives you six more outlets... or six dismayed guys, depending on how you look at it.
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Savrot said:
Well in Sweden it's illegal to do the electricy by yourself. Every wire and outlet is done and checked by a professional. I called my music store and they told me that they never ever even sold one i over twenty years. I'm suprised that it's a problem in such a developed country like the US.
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As far as the AxeFX is concerned, it would be more relevant to check with a computer store than a music store. A lot of installations use UPS's simply because (most of the good ones) guarantee a rock steady sinusoidal 60hz, 120V supply to the equipment, even when the wall power is still running.
 
Savrot said:
I'm suprised that it's a problem in such a developed country like the US.
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Yeah you'd think that but small clubs and shitty dive bars are run on the very ragged edge of solvency, that is to say it's a roll of the dice whether they're going to be open from one week to the next. The sort of folks that tend to gravitate towards that business don't put any money into them. They don't hire electricians that do work up to code. They get their cousin Smitty or whoever to do it because "they know what they're doing". They avoid inspections. They are mysteriously closed when they hear that a fire or code inspector is going to roll by. They take money out of the business before the bills are paid. A good percentage is running some sort of scam in the back. More than a few have prior convictions. Someone is usually dealing drugs, and they're probably in on it. They try to short the employees at the end of the night. It's generally a bad situation.
 
I'd like to throw my 2cents in as well:

Power Conditioners are nothing more than a glorified outlet strip for the most part. They typically attempt to filter out high frequency noise, provide surge protection, and overcurrent protection. They will not protect from damage due to brown-outs or overvoltages.

Voltage regulators are much more expensive and maintain a stable output voltage across a wide variety of input voltages.


For most venues, I would likely be okay with using just surge protection to protect my equipment. IIRC the Fractal equipment will handle universal inputs from 100-240VAC. And if I also had to guess, Cliff has some ingenious line filtering going on inside the box too.



TL;DR: I say surge protection is a must. Power conditioners are a joke, and if you want the most protection get a voltage regulator.
 
GTBorderlines said:
Voltage regulators are much more expensive and maintain a stable output voltage across a wide variety of input voltages.
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Except, not really. Or not always. They do regulate voltage but not instantly and not very accurately in most cases. They also cause distortion, thus changing the waveform from sinusoidal, which causes its own set of problems.



GTBorderlines said:
Cliff has some ingenious line filtering going on inside the box too.
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Cliff uses a switching power supply which takes a very wide range of voltages and remains operational. That's certainly an ingenious device but it's used in like 90% of modern equipment.

USMC_Trev said:
Yeah you'd think that but small clubs and shitty dive bars are run on the very ragged edge of solvency, that is to say it's a roll of the dice whether they're going to be open from one week to the next.
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Poor wiring is only one cause of power problems. Others don't depend on whether you need permission from the government to wipe your ass, unfortunately. Surges due to lightning are one example. Also, no matter how sophisticated the grid, it's a very complex thing with lots of events affecting it all the time, so things WILL happen to it.

Some are better maintained, some are worse. Countries with cold climate are often better because maintaining reliability dictates higher standards.
 
vangrieg said:
Poor wiring is only one cause of power problems. Others don't depend on whether you need permission from the government to wipe your ass, unfortunately. Surges due to lightning are one example. Also, no matter how sophisticated the grid, it's a very complex thing with lots of events affecting it all the time, so things WILL happen to it.

Some are better maintained, some are worse. Countries with cold climate are often better because maintaining reliability dictates higher standards.
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Dude, I know. It wasn't my intent to address every aspect, just the stuff I mentioned. Didn't need help. I live here. My pops worked for ConEd for 25 years. I know how the grid works. I'm a USMC/USN trained and qualified OSHA manager. I know the physics. I know the electrical theory. There's not much you can tell me on a forum I don't already know or can't find from more qualified people than you. Thanks anyway.
 
vangrieg said:
Except, not really. Or not always. They do regulate voltage but not instantly and not very accurately in most cases. They also cause distortion, thus changing the waveform from sinusoidal, which causes its own set of problems.





Cliff uses a switching power supply which takes a very wide range of voltages and remains operational. That's certainly an ingenious device but it's used in like 90% of modern equipment.



Poor wiring is only one cause of power problems. Others don't depend on whether you need permission from the government to wipe your ass, unfortunately. Surges due to lightning are one example. Also, no matter how sophisticated the grid, it's a very complex thing with lots of events affecting it all the time, so things WILL happen to it.

Some are better maintained, some are worse. Countries with cold climate are often better because maintaining reliability dictates higher standards.
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I can't attest to the THD of a typical Furman voltage regulator, so you've got me there - but I doubt the THD is of any real significance to cause problems.

True, SMPS have been around for a while now. But you can still implement them poorly. Keeping SMPS far away from the analog electronics (as Fractal does) and using isolation is what i was referring to as "ingenious".


And I agree with you about lightning. Surge protectors won't always work, but at least the MOV's/GDT's/ divert some lightning energy sometimes.
 
The interesting thing about the Furman regulators is that they only operate as regulators in a very narrow range, about +/- 16%, or 20 volts from nominal. Below that, they stop regulating until they eventually shut down. Above that, they just shut down, while in the US situation Axe FX can still work.

Granted, normally power supply won't deviate too much, but I'd say the range is a bit too narrow. It's basically designed for situations when supply is already good. Because, as I understand it, in the US voltage is allowed to drop to -14% by the standards in some cases. And I'd say that should already be taken care of by the Axe PSU. After all, it's supposed to work in Japan where nominal voltage is 110V, right?

Clamping voltage is the same as with their conditioners, 188 volts.

As for the THD, I also don't think it's a problem for Axe FX. Some analog equipment may not like it.
 
USMC_Trev said:
There's not much you can tell me on a forum I don't already know or can't find from more qualified people than you.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to appear condescending in any way. I technically replied to you, but it was a post visible to everyone, and addressed to no one in particular. Maybe somebody will find something useful in it.

Mainly, I was covering the question about whether certified electricians guarantee protection of equipment. They help, but far from always.

With regard to Sweden in particular, I participated in a project where we benchmarked grids around the world. If I remember correctly, Sweden was indeed one of the best. But that was more due to the way they maintain and repair their grid equipment, not so much about wiring inside buildings. And while their supply is one of the most reliable in the world, it is still not 100% reliable. It just cannot be.

The US is weird in this regard, and performance varies widely across the states and power companies. I personally lived in North Carolina when a winter storm hit. I was lucky to have been served by some cooperative and power was restored to my building within a day or two. Those who were served by Duke Power who optimized their inventory and didn't have warehouses full of equipment to spare had to wait for two weeks. :) So we had like 6 people sleeping at my place. :)
 
GTBorderlines said:
I'd like to throw my 2cents in as well:

Power Conditioners are nothing more than a glorified outlet strip for the most part. They typically attempt to filter out high frequency noise, provide surge protection, and overcurrent protection. They will not protect from damage due to brown-outs or overvoltages.

Voltage regulators are much more expensive and maintain a stable output voltage across a wide variety of input voltages.


For most venues, I would likely be okay with using just surge protection to protect my equipment. IIRC the Fractal equipment will handle universal inputs from 100-240VAC. And if I also had to guess, Cliff has some ingenious line filtering going on inside the box too.



TL;DR: I say surge protection is a must. Power conditioners are a joke, and if you want the most protection get a voltage regulator.
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How can that be? The Furman shuts down if it gets to much volt?
 
I would like to thank everyone who replied, i think i will go with the Furman since it's cheap and most importantly, very portable.
That is, if not anyone has an even better solution ;) but i can say that you all have convinced me that it is essential to have a power conditioner.
My music store is still really set on that it is not needed but they are not experts in this area at all. Im really glad that i found this forum :blush:
 
And if you need a multi plug/socket strip, don't use one from the bargain bin at discounter stores ;)
Especially not with on/off switches (as mentioned here before)
 
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So, I have some news. Cliff just said in another thread that Axe FX takes up to 264 volts just fine.

I checked Furman regulator specs, and guess what, they regulate within 174-264 volts. They stop regulating beyond that range, and shut down at 275 volts. So they make absolutely meaningless if we're talking about protecting just Axe FX, not some other equipment. A Furman conditioner will provide exactly the same level of protection at a fraction of the cost.
 
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