Do I have a lemon?

T

TedEH

Member
I'll preface this by saying that I like the FM3. I get good sounds out of it. I managed to incorporate it into my workflow and bands. The feature set works for me.
BUT
I feel like I have a lot of reliability issues.

The first thing I ran into was the fried USB issue that has been discussed a bunch of times here. I vaguely remember reading that it's something to do with plugging into the same circuit as the PC you're plugged into? That seems like it shouldn't be a thing. But, I have no warranty because I bought used, so I opted to just deal with it for now since I'd have to pay full price for the repair and I figured it wasn't a big deal at the time. No firmware updates, no backups, but at least it sounds good.

Then I noticed every once in a while when I start it up, the switches won't work. It's rare, but has happened a handful of times, usually at the most inconvenient moment. Power cycle usually corrects it. Ooookay, a little flakey, but not the end of the world.

Yesterday, we're doing a dress rehearsal for the first show I've played in a couple of years, show up to jam, and suddenly all of my system-level / global settings have disappeared into the void. The tuner mute is reset. The layouts are completely empty. Rebooting without touching anything doesn't correct it. It threw off my i/o settings and I had to reset them back up, hoping I get back to where I had started. I read something about backup batteries, but I think this only applies to the full Axe, 'cause I took this one apart and there's no battery in here. So I have no troubleshooting options.

The reliability has me really concerned that I can't trust this device in a live setting. I've got that first show on Saturday, and I'm tempted to just leave the FM3 at home and go back to my "real" amps, because at least they won't spontaneously forget things. At the very least, I can't go without a backup.

Given that I don't hear a lot of complaints most of the time - I know there's going to be a bit of a bias on a forum like this, but am I experiencing things that are "normal", and people just shrug it off, or do I have a lemon?
 
Dang that doesn’t sound fun at all. I think “lemon” would be a good term here.
I rarely, if at all, have issues with my FM3. I play out most Sunday’s. 2 hour practice in the morning with band and 1 hour showtime. FM3 stays on the whole time. Plus the 5-6 hours per week home practice I hope I’m not jinxing myself, but so far, the FM3 is rock solid on performance. The last “issue” I had, was my own user error. Again, I don’t want to jinx it but I’ve had good luck. As bad ass as these are, the update firmware, just enhances them even more. Wish you were having a better experience.
 
I'd be willing to accept "user error" as an explanation too, but I don't know what I'd be doing wrong.

I read somewhere that it matters whether you plug the FM3 into the same plug as your PC, and that seems like it shouldn't be a thing. I also read somewhere that if you're too quick to shut down after changing a setting, maybe that contributes to mangling the system level settings. I would have hoped that's also not a thing. The prevalence of stories about the fried USB doesn't inspire much confidence.

That being said - I've been using this for.... maybe a year? I forget when I got it now. And it's reliable most of the time. It's been used maybe 3-4 times a week that whole time and usually just does what I expect it to do.

I'm on firmware 6.0, if that means anything. Maybe I got unlucky and the usb died while I'm on a firmware with problems....?
 
That USB thing sounds interesting to say the least. The only hiccup I’ve had with USB was it didn’t recognize the FM3 in my audio preferences. MacBook Pro. Switched USB port and no issue again.
I did experience once, a warbling sound on a preset. I saved the preset but had stepped on a switch on my FC6 while it was saving. Resulted in a popping noise anytime I switched a scene. Remedied that by re-saving preset.
I know 6.02 was a good update for me. This 7.00 beta 3, has been a delight for me. So far, no known issues.
A real bummer about the USB thing man. Still can’t wrap my head around it I guess lol. Unless the power source from the wall, is compromised and not putting out the necessary power to keep up with both. Weird
 
I just chime in to provide another feedback...
FM3 owner from dec 2020, I use it every day with power on 6-8 hours per day.
Every day I switch from Mac to Pc, usb is always on, every firmware installed (betas included) and I never had any failure at all.

Maybe I got lucky or maybe you "have a lemon"... sorry to hear your troubles!
 
Sorry to hear about your adventures. It sounds like there might be a loose ribbon cable inside.

What’s the “fried USB thing?”
 
Rex said:
What’s the “fried USB thing?”
Click to expand...
I'm too lazy to collect the links, but there's a handful of threads here about it. Or at least there were. Titled stuff like "no audio from USB" or something like that. Basically, the USB plug just dies. No interface, no updates, no backups, just dead. There's no user-serviceable fix, and it's not seemingly a software problem. One thread had a theory it was related to power delivery and it would cause the USB chip to burn out.

Which, kinda tracks with my experience. Whenever I've tried the USB plug, I get weird power spikes on everything else plugged into the same circuit. Plug in the USB, turn the FM3 on, and suddenly my monitor shuts off for a moment. While it's happening, I have to disconnect the USB cable because sometimes it causes the device to not be able to boot correctly.
 
TedEH said:
I'm too lazy to collect the links, but there's a handful of threads here about it. Or at least there were. Titled stuff like "no audio from USB" or something like that. Basically, the USB plug just dies. No interface, no updates, no backups, just dead. There's no user-serviceable fix, and it's not seemingly a software problem. One thread had a theory it was related to power delivery and it would cause the USB chip to burn out.

Which, kinda tracks with my experience. Whenever I've tried the USB plug, I get weird power spikes on everything else plugged into the same circuit. Plug in the USB, turn the FM3 on, and suddenly my monitor shuts off for a moment. While it's happening, I have to disconnect the USB cable because sometimes it causes the device to not be able to boot correctly.
Click to expand...
This is all news to me. Power spikes from plugging in USB is just weird. I suspect there is some other power issue involved.
 
TedEH said:
I read somewhere that it matters whether you plug the FM3 into the same plug as your PC
Click to expand...
I assume you’re referring to the mains. This was very likely dealing with reducing ground issues and noise reduction. This is the case with all audio devices. While not necessary is best practice. The USB thing while being a crappy thing is really not significant in number IMO.

To me the thing that jumps out is that it is used. It’s hard to know what type of abuse it went through and it doesn’t mean it will be visible. I repair electronics. I had someone bring me a Tascam Digital recorder that wouldn’t work. I was able to track down some problems, but it seemed like every time I found one fault there was something else. Well after asking some questions, I find out this guys girlfriend picked up the unit and slammed it to the floor. For whatever reason it I didn’t show any major signs that this was done. Anyway, there were a multitude of solder connections (mainly push buttons) that were failed. Also, some tiny cracks in the PCB’s, loose cable, etc.

Update:
I should add my example was probably a worse case situation and not the norm. I would check internal cable as @Rex suggested and maybe see if looks like any liquid was spilled into it. Make sure you have quality USB cables for good data exchange.
 
Last edited:
Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there's risk involved in buying a used device, and that's on me. But at the same time, there's enough stories out there of people reporting the same or similar symptoms. When I contacted support about it, the answer was quick to go strait to "yeah, send it in, the repair is $450" without any troubleshooting, which suggests that it's not an unknown issue. The first link here is the one that suggests that a ground loop from using different outlets can cause connectivity issues.

1690387476601.png
 
TedEH said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there's risk involved in buying a used device, and that's on me. But at the same time, there's enough stories out there of people reporting the same or similar symptoms. When I contacted support about it, the answer was quick to go strait to "yeah, send it in, the repair is $450" without any troubleshooting, which suggests that it's not an unknown issue. The first link here is the one that suggests that a ground loop from using different outlets can cause connectivity issues.

View attachment 124075
Click to expand...
Think about how many FM3’s are sold vs. the number of people who have had this issue. It’s like all things internet. You’re either going to see people who are upset or people who are in love. Those who have not any issues don’t tend to report that.
 
…and 50% of people who are upset are wrong about what the problem was or mis-diagnosed. Believe me most people have no clue how electronics and electricity works even though they’re certain they do. Most the USB issues have been either mechanical failure which can be lots of reasons that have nothing to do with quality. Or there have been some issues with USB failure due to chip failure and like I said it’s not substantially significant.

Update:
And a number of your search results are about this issue some people went on and on about that was due to a 3rd party WIDI device that was not IMO designed properly and they insisted was the fault of the FM3.
 
The support staff probably have quite a bit of experience with "triage" of certain types of issues. They can look at a general pattern of symptoms and say, "don't waste your time with user-error related steps."

ASIDE: Has anyone ever gotten support help where you know you've tried all the bog-standard trouble-shooting, but the tech says, "let's start from square one." I get why they do it, but it is SO time consuming.

When you were told to send it in for repair, you were given the gift of time (which equals money), and saved a lot of wasted steps.

Re: the WIDI device issue: You no doubt read posts from myself and others about how the MIDI spec requires that the host device (FM3) include a current limiting resistor, and that there was no issue with the other Fractal models, only the FM3. You are free to draw your own conclusions-- based on your own "hunches" but you might want to "show your work". The MIDI spec doesn't say that connected devices must have current limiting (however, they often do).
 
stub said:
Re: the WIDI device issue: You no doubt read posts from myself and others about how the MIDI spec requires that the host device (FM3) include a current limiting resistor, and that there was no issue with the other Fractal models, only the FM3. You are free to draw your own conclusions-- based on your own "hunches" but you might want to "show your work". The MIDI spec doesn't say that connected devices must have current limiting (however, they often do).
Click to expand...
Oh Christ, you’re not going to actually rehash this crap here are you? I know you love your MIDI spec argument, but if you know anything about specs they are rarely followed 100%. So much of it has to do with spec changes and when they took place in development of all the many gadgets marketed. The proof to me is there are WIDI devices that don’t suffer this issue because they were designed better or at a point in time that made the difference. With this high tech stuff there is some due diligence on the consumer that is needed. Sorry, but it’s just the way it is. At least that’s how I deal with things.
 
Just to show I’m really a nice guy and want to help people not only solve problems, but avoid them in the first place. From what I gather (and this is just from bits of info I read from @FractalAudio and the Wiki) is the whole USB thing with the FM3 vs. the AxeFX3 and FM9 is the USB communications is handled by one of the main processors and doesn’t have a controller of it’s own. Yes, this was probably to cut cost or maybe even more probable a space saving issue. Whatever the reason and if anyone was ever involved in R&D there are things that just don’t warrant changing. It’s just the reality of things.

Instead of what the FX3 or FM9 costs the FM3 was at a price point I was willing to dive into and damn grateful it was. I will deal with what might be missing.
 
GitGuy513 said:
Or there have been some issues with USB failure due to chip failure and like I said it’s not substantially significant.
Click to expand...
In some fairness, whether or not it's statistically significant doesn't really help me if I'm the outlier. Point was that I know I'm not the only one to have run into some kind of issue, and the response I got from support made it at least feel like it was common enough that they had a prepared response for it. (Kind of like what stub is suggesting about triaging.) Do I know enough to know that the USB chip is literally fried? Of course not. But I know just enough to suspect that there's no significant mechanical strain, or signs of physical damage. And I've used enough USB devices to know that plugging them in shouldn't make my other devices shut off for a moment.

stub said:
Would you consider sending it in for a paid repair/full diagnostic, etc?
Click to expand...
On paper, this is the right thing to do. In practice, the cost and headache are difficult to swallow. It's likely to cost me around $500 for the repair, plus whatever the international shipping is from Quebec. Then during that time, I normally use this for two different instruments and three different bands, so I have to work out three backup solutions, since we have shows booked through to November. Also, having no USB means I have no backups, meaning a good chance I lose all my sounds in the exchange.

I had the thought that by the time I pay for repair costs, I could almost just buy a new one and offload this one as-is minus the same repair cost, and it works out to being similar to the same out-of-pocket to at least be left with a warranty.

So it seems like I can:
  • Do nothing. Resign to having no USB. Always bring a backup solution.
  • Switch back to using my old tube amps and the FM3 is the backup
  • Pay a bunch of money and hope it's fixed.
  • Pay a bunch of money and get a new one
 
TedEH said:
And I've used enough USB devices to know that plugging them in shouldn't make my other devices shut off for a moment.
Click to expand...
I swear I’m not being a smart ass, but this statement tells me you haven’t plugged in enough USB devices especially back in the day. The spec always called for hot swap-ability but that wasn’t the case in the early days of USB.

But let’s try to get back on track. I have to admit I misread your OP and thought you actually got the USB fixed. So not having any USB does suck and I feel for you. Unfortunately besides making 100% sure that that actual connector is not malfunctioning due to bad connection at the connector and board and finding a competent repair person try and repair that for less money, having it repaired by FAS is all that can be done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom