Dedicated FRFR (Red Sound) vs. Standard Wedge via Mixer Aux?

Spina

Spina

Member
Hi everyone,

I am looking to buy a monitoring solution for FM3 to use during live gigs.

Context: I usually play in small clubs and pubs. When I play on larger stages, I use the house monitors provided by the venue, so this question is specifically regarding smaller gigs where I need to bring my own monitoring.

Initially, I was almost 100% set on buying a Red Sound MF.10 PRO/M to place behind me. My plan was to use the classic configuration: FM3 XLR Out to Mixer and 1/4" Jack Out to the Red Sound, acting effectively as a classic guitar amp.

However, I recently started considering a different approach:

Instead of a dedicated backline cab, what if I just buy a standard active stage monitor (wedge) to place in front of me?

The setup would be:

FM3 (XLR) -> Mixer -> Mixer Aux Send -> Active Wedge (placed in front of me).

This way, I would rely entirely on the mixer's Aux send to hear my guitar along with the rest of the band (keys, vocals, etc.).

My questions are:
  1. Does anyone use this specific configuration live in small venues?
  2. Do you miss the "amp in the room" feel coming from behind you, or do you find having a full mix in a front wedge more effective?
  3. Can you recommend a good quality active wedge (brand/model) that translates the Fractal tone well? Portability is key for me, so I am looking for something lightweight but without compromising on sound quality or performance.
Thanks in advance for your help!

Update:
After browsing the forum a bit, I saw some mentions of the Yamaha DHR12M and the Electro-Voice PXM-12MP.

The Yamaha is more affordable but heavier (16.5kg), while the EV is lighter (13.5kg) but costs about 30% more.

Does the performance/sound quality difference justify the higher price tag for the EV?

Also, if I were to go for a 10" woofer instead (to save even more weight and space), would I be sacrificing too much in terms of sound fullness and low-end response?
I also noticed that some users mention the Turbosound TFX122M-AN.Has anyone had the chance to compare it directly with the Yamaha?Any thoughts or opinions on this one?

Any other recommendations?
 
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I use my PXM's as backline at some gigs (especially small gigs where I don't trust the house PA), and use a PXM or Yamaha DXR10 as a floor wedge when we aren't running IEM's. I may be more tolerant of less bass than most guitar players since I'm also a FOH engineer, but no, I don't feel I lack anything with the 10" Yamaha. They are plenty loud and pack a punch.

Is one configuration better than the other? No...just different. A good monitor mix reminds me of when I had an amp way back on the stage, mic'd up, and had to feed some of that mic into my monitor. No difference there. If you like flapping your pants legs with an amp, you might miss that.

No direct experience with the Yamaha you mention. I can heartily recommend the PXM-12MP. I got two shortly after they went on the market, and I have no regerts (SIC). But based on Yamaha's other offerings, I suspect that coax monitor can be made to sound excellent, and plenty loud.
 
greiswig said:
I use my PXM's as backline at some gigs (especially small gigs where I don't trust the house PA), and use a PXM or Yamaha DXR10 as a floor wedge when we aren't running IEM's. I may be more tolerant of less bass than most guitar players since I'm also a FOH engineer, but no, I don't feel I lack anything with the 10" Yamaha. They are plenty loud and pack a punch.

Is one configuration better than the other? No...just different. A good monitor mix reminds me of when I had an amp way back on the stage, mic'd up, and had to feed some of that mic into my monitor. No difference there. If you like flapping your pants legs with an amp, you might miss that.

No direct experience with the Yamaha you mention. I can heartily recommend the PXM-12MP. I got two shortly after they went on the market, and I have no regerts (SIC). But based on Yamaha's other offerings, I suspect that coax monitor can be made to sound excellent, and plenty loud.
Click to expand...

I'd love to get the PXM, but the price is holding me back. At the same time, I have a lot of faith in Yamaha speakers. Red Sound is definitely a safe bet for guitar tone, but for a general purpose monitoring application, it might be smarter to get a standard wedge. Let's see if anyone else has had a chance to compare them.
 
I use a powered wedge when I’m not confident I’ll get a decent monitor mix from the house. I don’t need a full mixer - I just installed a passive volume control on one of my FM3’s balanced outs (mounted in a small enclosure on my board) and put one of those Dunlop rubber foot control knobs on it so I can tweak the level while I’m playing if needed.

My current wedge is a Yorkville E10P, which are ubiquitous up here in Canada and can be picked up used for very reasonable prices (I have a pair, as they often get used for other purposes too). It can be carried in one hand, though isn’t exactly light. I might grab an even smaller wedge for rehearsals and for shows where I don’t need that much power or where space is really tight - like musical theatre gigs, or smaller pubs/restaurants.
 
Spina said:
Does the performance/sound quality difference justify the higher price tag for the EV
Click to expand...
Hard to say what’s important for you but I personally have found that with all the noise on the stage and around I don’t care about monitor quality all that much, unless it’s something outrageous.
 
Whichever of both, as both have 2 channels (pxm even 3 channels). I'd rather use one channel for the axe fx and the other for band monitoring. This gives you more flexibility for adjusting your guitar return volume on the fly without having to call on the console. I use a CLR that can be used as a backline stand upright for small places where you won't need any monitoring and floor monitor for stages. But nowadays I'd definitely not buy a CLR anymore due to their after sales problems that luckily I didn't have to call on yet. IMHO : Get yourself one of the 2 monitors you proposed.

Edit : your question about AITR is of no importance playing live. At live volumes you will get "AITR" sound reflections from the venue, no sweat.
 
lauke-lux said:
Whichever of both, as both have 2 channels (pxm even 3 channels). I'd rather use one channel for the axe fx and the other for band monitoring. This gives you more flexibility for adjusting your guitar return volume on the fly without having to call on the console. I use a CLR that can be used as a backline stand upright for small places where you won't need any monitoring and floor monitor for stages. But nowadays I'd definitely not buy a CLR anymore due to their after sales problems that luckily I didn't have to call on yet. IMHO : Get yourself one of the 2 monitors you proposed.

Edit : your question about AITR is of no importance playing live. At live volumes you will get "AITR" sound reflections from the venue, no sweat.
Click to expand...

That's a great idea, I hadn't thought of that!
In fact, with one of my 3 bands, this solves a specific problem I have: all the Aux sends on my mixer (an RCF LPAD16) are already in use.
Following your suggestion, I could plug the FM3 directly into Channel 2 of the wedge and then feed the "rest of the band" mix into Channel 1 (maybe from the mixer's Phones output? I'm open to suggestions on this).The guitar would also be present in that Phones mix, of course, but I could then use Channel 2 (my direct guitar signal) to just blend in the extra guitar volume I need for myself, without affecting the FOH mix at all. That's very flexible. Thanks!
 
Spina said:
That's a great idea, I hadn't thought of that!
In fact, with one of my 3 bands, this solves a specific problem I have: all the Aux sends on my mixer (an RCF LPAD16) are already in use.
Following your suggestion, I could plug the FM3 directly into Channel 2 of the wedge and then feed the "rest of the band" mix into Channel 1 (maybe from the mixer's Phones output? I'm open to suggestions on this).The guitar would also be present in that Phones mix, of course, but I could then use Channel 2 (my direct guitar signal) to just blend in the extra guitar volume I need for myself, without affecting the FOH mix at all. That's very flexible. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Just don't push your guitar channel too loud in your monitor, especially if you have a mic for backing vocals close to your wedge, this in order to prevent too much sound from your wedge to bleed through to FOH. Use a wedge that's not too focussed. 80° horizontal dispersion and 60° vertically, so not to ray too much in direction of your mic, is good. Anyway, if there's a sound engineer he'll recall you to reason "soon enough" 😂.
 
Spina said:
That's a great idea, I hadn't thought of that!
In fact, with one of my 3 bands, this solves a specific problem I have: all the Aux sends on my mixer (an RCF LPAD16) are already in use.
Click to expand...
Normally you can daisy chain from another wedge's output to your monitor IN channel. Just choose to daisy chain from the wedge aux that fits you best.
 
lauke-lux said:
Just don't push your guitar channel too loud in your monitor, especially if you have a mic for backing vocals close to your wedge, this in order to prevent too much sound from your wedge to bleed through to FOH. Use a wedge that's not too focussed. 80° horizontal dispersion and 60° vertically, so not to ray too much in direction of your mic, is good. Anyway, if there's a sound engineer he'll recall you to reason "soon enough" 😂.
Click to expand...

Haha, thanks for the warning about mic bleed!That's a very good point. Since I mostly play in small clubs, I'm usually my own sound engineer, so I'd only have myself to blame if it bleeds into the mics. 😉My personal rule of thumb is that the guitar volume in the monitor is correct when it completely drowns out the drummer! (Just kidding... mostly.)

lauke-lux said:
Normally you can daisy chain from another wedge's output to your monitor IN channel. Just choose to daisy chain from the wedge aux that fits you best.
Click to expand...
On a serious note, I'll need to run some tests, for sure. Since there's no sound engineer at FOH and I'm mixing from the stage, I think I'd actually prefer to have the "Main Mix" (what the audience hears) in my wedge's Channel 1. This would give me a rough idea of the overall balance, helping me make adjustments to the mix during the gig. This is also why I didn't just want to link to another musician's monitor send. So, for that specific purpose (getting the full Main Mix into my wedge), do you think the mixer's Phones Output is a viable and clean solution?
 
Spina said:
Hi everyone,

I am looking to buy a monitoring solution for FM3 to use during live gigs.

Context: I usually play in small clubs and pubs. When I play on larger stages, I use the house monitors provided by the venue, so this question is specifically regarding smaller gigs where I need to bring my own monitoring.

Initially, I was almost 100% set on buying a Red Sound MF.10 PRO/M to place behind me. My plan was to use the classic configuration: FM3 XLR Out to Mixer and 1/4" Jack Out to the Red Sound, acting effectively as a classic guitar amp.

However, I recently started considering a different approach:

Instead of a dedicated backline cab, what if I just buy a standard active stage monitor (wedge) to place in front of me?

The setup would be:

FM3 (XLR) -> Mixer -> Mixer Aux Send -> Active Wedge (placed in front of me).

This way, I would rely entirely on the mixer's Aux send to hear my guitar along with the rest of the band (keys, vocals, etc.).

My questions are:
  1. Does anyone use this specific configuration live in small venues?
  2. Do you miss the "amp in the room" feel coming from behind you, or do you find having a full mix in a front wedge more effective?
  3. Can you recommend a good quality active wedge (brand/model) that translates the Fractal tone well? Portability is key for me, so I am looking for something lightweight but without compromising on sound quality or performance.
Thanks in advance for your help!

Update:
After browsing the forum a bit, I saw some mentions of the Yamaha DHR12M and the Electro-Voice PXM-12MP.

The Yamaha is more affordable but heavier (16.5kg), while the EV is lighter (13.5kg) but costs about 30% more.

Does the performance/sound quality difference justify the higher price tag for the EV?

Also, if I were to go for a 10" woofer instead (to save even more weight and space), would I be sacrificing too much in terms of sound fullness and low-end response?
I also noticed that some users mention the Turbosound TFX122M-AN.Has anyone had the chance to compare it directly with the Yamaha?Any thoughts or opinions on this one?

Any other recommendations?
Click to expand...

@Spina there is a lot of great information in this thread
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...m-evpxm-friedman-fender-and-laney-ect.216353/

I am looking at the EvPxm12-MP they are on the more expensive side but it all depends on what and how you want to use them and its better to buy something like the EV for a quality sound that can be a very versatile choice read through these members thoughts on the different choices..
The Red sound is a great choice read what these members have to say there is a lot of valuable information here.
@Rick @pima1234 @Dave Merrill
 
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Freds55 said:
@Spina there is a lot of great information in this thread
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...m-evpxm-friedman-fender-and-laney-ect.216353/

I am looking at the EvPxm12-MP they are on the more expensive side but it all depends on what and how you want to use them and its better to buy something like the EV for a quality sound that can be a very versatile choice read through these members thoughts on the different choices..
The Red sound is a great choice read what these members have to say there is a lot of valuable information here.
@Rick @pima1234 @Dave Merrill
Click to expand...

Ask any of the members in that thread about any of cab’s these guys have all kinds of experience with these Cabs I like the EVPXM 12 MP because it has a built in amp 700watts. They can be mounted on a pole or you can stand them on end or used as a wedge. They are a very versatile choice….
But the others are also great choices Check out what @Rick posted he is very knowledgeable player and has played through a lot of these cabs
 
vangrieg said:
If you’re in a small room and there’s nobody to watch out for the mix, how are you going to control the sound the audience hears with a monitor on stage?
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Mixing from stage is always a major compromise, but sometimes that's how it is.

Outside of getting out into the room during sound check (if you get one), having the house mix in a full frequency response monitor close by may be the best you can do. Arguably that job is more important to the audience experience than your guitar tone, even your playing (but not your singing!).

If some or all of the players have loud-ish amps, acoustic drums, horns, b3 + Leslie, etc, tbh you're doomed. The sound will be different everywhere on stage, and no stage location will mirror what's happening in the room very well. In a small room, that's true out in the room too, it's different everywhere.

So i say, make yourself and your band happy, take a walk around the room sometimes if you can, and trust in the gods.
 
Dave Merrill said:
Mixing from stage is always a major compromise, but sometimes that's how it is.

Outside of getting out into the room during sound check (if you get one), having the house mix in a full frequency response monitor close by may be the best you can do. Arguably that job is more important to the audience experience than your guitar tone, even your playing (but not your singing!).

If some or all of the players have loud-ish amps, acoustic drums, horns, b3 + Leslie, etc, tbh you're doomed. The sound will be different everywhere on stage, and no stage location will mirror what's happening in the room very well. In a small room, that's true out in the room too, it's different everywhere.

So i say, make yourself and your band happy, take a walk around the room sometimes if you can, and trust in the gods.
Click to expand...
As much as I dislike the idea of backline, isn’t it better in such a case to use a speaker as backline though, as opposed to having guitar and a quieter band mix in a pa plus a monitor on stage facing backwards with who knows what reflections getting into the mix with a delay?

I mean, I’d certainly go with IEMs but if that’s not an option maybe it is the exact case for PA just to amplify vocals, and maybe kick/snare?
 
Dave Merrill said:
Mixing from stage is always a major compromise, but sometimes that's how it is.

Outside of getting out into the room during sound check (if you get one), having the house mix in a full frequency response monitor close by may be the best you can do. Arguably that job is more important to the audience experience than your guitar tone, even your playing (but not your singing!).

If some or all of the players have loud-ish amps, acoustic drums, horns, b3 + Leslie, etc, tbh you're doomed. The sound will be different everywhere on stage, and no stage location will mirror what's happening in the room very well. In a small room, that's true out in the room too, it's different everywhere.

So i say, make yourself and your band happy, take a walk around the room sometimes if you can, and trust in the gods.
Click to expand...

That is so very true @Dave Merrill i totally agree when I’m mixing sound for our band I will walk around the stage and also out front, sides so I can hear what the area as a whole sounds like and it has been working and the sound is much better that is also been something i will have to learn on the EV PXM-Mp12 when I get them.
@Rick shared this on the fender FR-12’s
@Cainer makes this fender https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/doin-that-texas-thang-with-a-shuffle.213728/#post-2693556
These cab’sound fabulous also but @Cainer talent has a lot to do with it
Here is a Fender FR 12 (@Cainer) posted a demo on them a while back
 
We often do the “self mix” thing in small venues. You just have to accept it is a compromise and won’t be as good as if you were in the house mixing, but you’ve got other things to do. :D I have a Radial switcher so I can swap from my monitor mix to the house mix in my EV PXM. It lets me check what’s going out front, at least from a mix perspective. That’s the best I’ve been able to come up with for those gigs.

But let’s face it, how often have you had a “sound man” and the mix was less than you could do for yourself? We fired one guy after the keyboard player turned all three of his keyboards off for three songs and the guy never noticed. Everything is a compromise until you can afford a true pro out front, and that’s not a reality for most players. It’s a luxury I truly enjoy and appreciate when I have it!
 
I've never used an frfr in monitor position, just as backline. I have them up on short stands, both for better dispersion, and so they're not pointing at my ankles. That's how i use them at home too.

IEMs are probably the most controllable solution, but of course there are things to deal with if you go that way - coverage for the audience near the stage, probably separate mixes for each player, how it works with acoustic drums, horns etc, potentially higher cost, and the big one, getting everyone on board.
 
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