decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is for me

[joegold]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

PM uses one of Digitech's 2101 multi-effects rack units.
He's used it for years, probably since his old Acoustic 134 fell apart.

He has stayed away from overdriven rock guitar sounds over the years on purpose, probably as a way to distinguish himself from everybody else.
But every once in a while you'll hear him sneak something in somewhere.

The Axe does not have to be used for hi-gain shredding.
It does anything that any traditional guitar amp has done, and more.

 

[henryrobinett]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

joegold - Yep, I agree with you. Just to make sure your beating the dead horse to the OP, and not including me in this abuse - I do use it with an amp and cabs. Don't get me wrong. I'm in the Ultra support group, meaning I am digging it. But I have to use it a lot more to be 100% certain.

Re PM, I know. It's clear he's stayed away purposely, and I REALLY appreciate that. I've been a big PM fan since before he released Bright Size Life. I saw him with Gary Burton. That's a different story. I see you studied with him. Good!

 

[joegold]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Yeah. I was studying with him when he first got the gig with Burton and came to Berklee to teach when they weren't on the road.
He was also in the midst of recording BSL. I used to hear those guys rehearsing.
It was a good time to be there.

 

[henryrobinett]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Yeah. I was studying with him when he first got the gig with Burton and came to Berklee to teach when they weren't on the road.
He was also in the midst of recording BSL. I used to hear those guys rehearsing.
It was a good time to be there.

How wonderful. I was getting ready to head to NYC myself back then.

What may be easy to forget, especially for those who weren't there then, the importance of PM during that time. As I saw things, we were looking for an answer to how to play modern jazz guitar, in the post modal Coltrane, pseudo fusion world. What was the rage then was playing as fast as you could. McLaughlin was the serious guitar guy in the jazz world and Clarke was the bass man. In one fell swoop, Metheny/Jaco changed that with Bright Size Life. That's how it impacted me in any event. He played MELODICALLY and got away from the traditional post bebop harmonic ii-V, altered dominant thing, and went triadic, like Jarrett and even Ornette, who though was "free" was more triadic in his harmonic concept.

It must have been great listening to those guys rehearse. Before Jaco went crazy.

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

hey guys thanks for all your input! I know you are all very knowlegable and I value your opinions. I have tried the axe with a power amp and cab and it sounded better than the fr route to me as well. I actually had a couple of other very good guitar players who are also jazz/fusion players and axe users over and we tried a bunch of different combinations. We tried a few fr's, a power amp and cab and a port city head and cab with an eminence in it. While the axe sounded very good with all of them and our least favorites were the fr, the axe-power amp and cab was good, but we all agreed that the head sounded better. We all have had the axe for a few years and we are all experienced tweakers and we came close but the head had something we couldn't recreate. I see it like this, if you listen to an mp3 it soung good to you but when you compare it to a cd on the same system you can hear the flaws. An amp sim is copying an amp and the axe does it great, but when you hear it back to back with a great custom head and you are using the same cab, you will hear the difference imho. I'm not disagreeing with you that the axe is the best sounding digital unit for the electric guitar ever.We just use it in our own way, after all that just shows the units flexibility!

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

I'm in a similar situation with the Axe. I've been an amp plus pedals person playing rootsy styles into jazz. Nothing too high gain and not usually in places where I can play super loud. For any kind of gain sounds or things with edge on them, I've found the Axe to be amazing and I feel like I can get more gain sounds at a reasonable volume than I ever have.

It's in the really clean sounds that I have issues similar to the ones already discussed, like ones used by all the jazzers/modern jazzers noted. I've used a Fractomic and a Tech 21 Power Engine (or 2). The clean sounds are decent, but then I flip on a tube amp (or even my little Yamaha G50 solid state) and there's an immediacy to the sounds that I'm not hearing with the Axe. There are other aspects to the detail of the sound and the responsiveness that I can tweak with the Axe that I can't touch with the basic amps. I, too, wonder if it's not the Axe so much as the amplification for the Axe that's lacking.

What I haven't done and see that I should try is run into a separate power amp and speaker. I instead bailed for a while and spent stupid $ getting a Tone King Metropolitan. It's an amazingly great sounding amp, but I think I need to come back to the Axe and explore some more. In general though, for effects and for any level of edge to gainy stuff the Axe is awesome. It's just that basic "better" vanilla sound that I'm missing, too.

Mike

PS...Enjoyed the hell out of Mental Images 2. Great playing and very cool tune.

Thanks for the compliment mike! and I agree with you about the clean sounds, it helps going with a real cab like joe gold said and you can get some great sounds. I just think that, why try to recreate something if you have the real thing. Thats just my opinion, but experiment and try it out for your self.

 

[henryrobinett]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Btw sorry for not commenting on the song and the playing, both of which were wonderful. YouTube kept hiccuping during play so I didn't hear all of it. Good stuff.

 

[Smilzo]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

I've used a Fractomic and a Tech 21 Power Engine (or 2). The clean sounds are decent, but then I flip on a tube amp (or even my little Yamaha G50 solid state) and there's an immediacy to the sounds that I'm not hearing with the Axe.

We discuss it some time ago (in "missing cranck" thread). Cliff prefers smooth attack recover, so he modeled the amps this way.

 

[Nunu]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Hi jazz guyz !
I feel very concerned about this topic. Let's say I'm a 70% AxeFX lover. I think it's the best preamp/amp sim for recording direct. It is super convenient on stage to have immediate access to tons of very different & great sounds. But especially on stage I have not found a way to be 100% happy. I'm touring all the time, travelling by plane & train, with lots of different situations & never have my own amps - I ask for amps at the gig, usually a JC120 & a Fender Hot Rod (going into the power amp input) in stereo. Sometimes I don't have what I asked & I just use what's there. So no Frfr solution possible. The rare cases when I went direct in the PA where terrible - PA are supposed to be neutral, but they're not, so every gig they sounds different, & there's a weird feeling that's it's not your sound that you hear through the monitors. I spent hours & hours to tweak for the best sounds & found very difficult to translate from my homestudio to the stage - in fact I made programs for studio & others for stage. My Ultra is doing all preamps/amps/effects but I still need the immediacy/proximity/body/"emotion" of a real amp. With that setup I've learn to program the Axe sounds not too big & coloured since they'll be coloured again by the amp.
All the best !

 

[Muris_Varajic]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Sorry to hijack the thread but it seems to me that we are comparing
apples and oranges once again, don't mean to offend anyone ofc!

Going FRFR or direct to PA means using amp sims, cab sims and probably mic sims as well from AxeFX.
In other words, if you wanna compare a real amp with that then you have to mic it,
step away from it a listen to what comes out of PA or FRFR monitors, no other way.

So gsegal, if you are playing smaller clubs (or rooms, as you said)
where most of the sound is coming from the stage and not from PA (if there is PA at all, I didn't get that part, sorry)
then your choice is rather very logical to me, you set a tone you like next to you
and people get the same, sort of, depends of where everyone is sitting.

As for AxeFx and its tone shaping including amp and cab sims,
I'm 100% sure you can dial pretty much any sound you want (including jazzy ones)
but once again you would have to compare that with miced amp...

And imo the AxeFx isn't focused on heavy stuff by itself,
perhaps there are just more heavy players contributing the forum or using AxeFx.

Not trying to change your mind by any means,
use whatever works best for you and your current situation/needs, best of luck!

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Hi jazz guyz !
I feel very concerned about this topic. Let's say I'm a 70% AxeFX lover. I think it's the best preamp/amp sim for recording direct. It is super convenient on stage to have immediate access to tons of very different & great sounds. But especially on stage I have not found a way to be 100% happy. I'm touring all the time, travelling by plane & train, with lots of different situations & never have my own amps - I ask for amps at the gig, usually a JC120 & a Fender Hot Rod (going into the power amp input) in stereo. Sometimes I don't have what I asked & I just use what's there. So no Frfr solution possible. The rare cases when I went direct in the PA where terrible - PA are supposed to be neutral, but they're not, so every gig they sounds different, & there's a weird feeling that's it's not your sound that you hear through the monitors. I spent hours & hours to tweak for the best sounds & found very difficult to translate from my homestudio to the stage - in fact I made programs for studio & others for stage. My Ultra is doing all preamps/amps/effects but I still need the immediacy/proximity/body/"emotion" of a real amp. With that setup I've learn to program the Axe sounds not too big & coloured since they'll be coloured again by the amp.
All the best !

I agree that the axe is a great recording tool but it is hard to get it to translate to live using amp sims. Just speaking for my self, but it's so much easier to get a consistent sound in any room using an actual amp. The few gig that I had where I used the pa were cool and easy to run FR and comparing a miked amp to the axe is the right way to approach it. I just like using an amp that's what it comes down to, Its easy and I can away rely on it.

 

[jojo]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Interesting comment about different PAs in different venues sounding different, but I come to a different conclusion. This pushes me to go direct, not mic a tube amp. Ever been at a big show where some bozo sound man hangs an SM57 by the cord in front of your cab, or sticks it in the middle of your cone at a 90 degree angle? I used to constantly tweak mic positions and stare down sound guys who wanted to have it "their" way.

I agree, PAs are not neutral. They all sound different, but anyone who's ever recorded knows that mic placement also makes a profound difference in tone. I rarely play gigs where most of what the audience hears comes from my stage rig. Quite the opposite, most of what they hear comes from the mains. So I want as much consistency as possible, and I've found that going direct gives me much more consistency than being mic'd. Think about it, every variable between PAs and rooms is still there if you play thru a tube amp, plus you are throwing in the additional variable of being mic'd.

I can never recreate the sound and feel of my favorite amps as exactly as I'd like, but I can play those amps at home. When I play out, I care more about what the audience is hearing than what I am hearing (the bigger the stage, the less I hear anyway). I can get great tones out of the axe, and I play to the tone I'm getting. And going direct, I get a better sense that the audience is getting pretty much what I'm getting. I don't go FRFR, I've put together a rig based on a poweramp and guitar cab. In most of my patches, the feed to the board adds a cab sim that's the same as what I'm using.

There are times when I'm tempted to use the axe as effects only, there are some things my favorite amps do better, but ovarall I think the consistency and simplicity translates to a better experience for the audience.

 

[joegold]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Just speaking for my self, but it's so much easier to get a consistent sound in any room using an actual amp.

Hmm. I've had the exact opposite experience.
Every room I play in is different and my sound often suffers because of it.
With a regular amp there's nothing I can do about that except to get used to that room and play.

With the Axe I've got lots of tools that can taper my tone to the room. Sure I still have to get used to the room.
But, for example, if the room is really boomy on the bottom end or there's some sort of a bass trap, I can taper the bottom end in so many more ways on the Axe than I could with a real amp, unless I also brought a rack full of equalizers with me.
Etc., etc. etc.

I'm not sure why you're not getting the vibe you need to have from the Axe's amp sims.
But *I* sure get it.

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Interesting comment about different PAs in different venues sounding different, but I come to a different conclusion. This pushes me to go direct, not mic a tube amp. Ever been at a big show where some bozo sound man hangs an SM57 by the cord in front of your cab, or sticks it in the middle of your cone at a 90 degree angle? I used to constantly tweak mic positions and stare down sound guys who wanted to have it "their" way.

I agree, PAs are not neutral. They all sound different, but anyone who's ever recorded knows that mic placement also makes a profound difference in tone. I rarely play gigs where most of what the audience hears comes from my stage rig. Quite the opposite, most of what they hear comes from the mains. So I want as much consistency as possible, and I've found that going direct gives me much more consistency than being mic'd. Think about it, every variable between PAs and rooms is still there if you play thru a tube amp, plus you are throwing in the additional variable of being mic'd.

I can never recreate the sound and feel of my favorite amps as exactly as I'd like, but I can play those amps at home. When I play out, I care more about what the audience is hearing than what I am hearing (the bigger the stage, the less I hear anyway). I can get great tones out of the axe, and I play to the tone I'm getting. And going direct, I get a better sense that the audience is getting pretty much what I'm getting. I don't go FRFR, I've put together a rig based on a poweramp and guitar cab. In most of my patches, the feed to the board adds a cab sim that's the same as what I'm using.

There are times when I'm tempted to use the axe as effects only, there are some things my favorite amps do better, but ovarall I think the consistency and simplicity translates to a better experience for the audience.

Jojo what you are saying makes total sense. I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of venues. I'm talking about smaller clubs where you rely on your amp to fill the room and also give you what you need to hear. In those situations where I rely mainly on my clean sound I get better results using my real amp. I was once really psyched about using the sims and felt like if I didn't use them I was cheating my self by only using half the capability of the axe. Then my tube fR was broken I had to use an amp. I fell in love with using amps again I finally got what I was looking for. Now I am convinced that that's best for me. The way you describe your situation makes total sense to me as well, this piece of gear is amazing, you can approach it in numerous ways.

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

Just speaking for my self, but it's so much easier to get a consistent sound in any room using an actual amp.

Hmm. I've had the exact opposite experience.
Every room I play in is different and my sound often suffers because of it.
With a regular amp there's nothing I can do about that except to get used to that room and play.

With the Axe I've got lots of tools that can taper my tone to the room. Sure I still have to get used to the room.
But, for example, if the room is really boomy on the bottom end or there's some sort of a bass trap, I can taper the bottom end in so many more ways on the Axe than I could with a real amp, unless I also brought a rack full of equalizers with me.
Etc., etc. etc.

I'm not sure why you're not getting the vibe you need to have from the Axe's amp sims.
But *I* sure get it.

That's the thing about the axe is that I don't need racks of equalizers, the axe has an amazing amount of tone shaping available even without the sims. That's awesome that you are that happy with the sims! I just don't see the huge advantage in it unless you are playing venues that have big PA's and the axe gives you more control over the sound.

 

[jb70]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

i'm also a modern jazz player and i'm in agreement with the OP. i've tried the axe fx through a bunch of fr's, the power amp section of a mesa boogie mark IV, and in front of a port city rig and i much prefer the latter. the fr route is cool if you're in a cover band or a rock player or are in a situation where you have additional monitoring capabilities. like the OP, i use a clean tone 95% of the time. it is my base tone, my voice. i'm relying soley on my rig for amplification on all of my gigs (no additional monitoring) and i've found that the best setup for my situation is to use the axe fx in front of a tube amp as a virtual pedalboard. the results that i'm getting are astounding. add to that the portability and flexibility of my rig and i couldn't be happier. i have a head, a 1x12 cab (my guitar stand, expression pedal, and a power strip all fit in the pocket of my tuki cover), my 2 space gator rack (my LF jr, cables, and AC adaptor all fit in the pocket), and my guitar. that's it! i'm the type of guy who doesn't like having multiple rigs and lots of extra gear laying around and this particular rig has let me streamline everything.

 

[joegold]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

That's the thing about the axe is that I don't need racks of equalizers, the axe has an amazing amount of tone shaping available even without the sims. That's awesome that you are that happy with the sims! I just don't see the huge advantage in it unless you are playing venues that have big PA's and the axe gives you more control over the sound.

I do lots of gigs w/o the Axe too, like a regular big band I do in a small club where there's just not enough space allotted to me to bring in my Axe rig. There's no room for any pedals either. It's just guitar into combo amp with 1 cable. But I'd rather be using the Axe. It sounds better, just for a basic clean sound.
Actually on Monday (we play the last Monday of every month at The Rex in Toronto) I'm actually going to try to take the Axe in there this time. I've only got 4 rack spaces worth of stuff in my rack but I've been using a 6-space rack. With the 4-space rack I intend to buy it'll be a bit easier to set up my Axe rig on that stage. I just won't bring the foot-controller.

But you're not planning on using a scaled down guitar-amp-pedals rig. You're taking the Axe with you anyway.
*I* can't see the advantage in doing *that*.

The advantages to using the Axe with a lightweight ss power amp and a small guitar cab are (again):
1. Great sound in any venue.
2. Light weight and portable.
3. Fast and easy set-up and tear-down.
4. No tubes to futz with.
Etc.

Most jazz guitar players I know are deeply concerned about light-weight, portability, and fast set-up/tear-down.
Most guys don't even have cars and have to take public transit to their gigs with their archtops and the Polytones in tow.
I'm the only jazz guy around here who's willing to even lug a 4-space rack and a speaker cabinet around with me.
You seem to actually want to take a bunch of gear with you and spend lots of time setting it up and tearing it down.
Obviously, I'm not likely to change your mind about any of this. I'm just trying to give you my own perspective about your decision.

BTW
I noticed that of the amp sims you said you've worked with that you did not mention the USA Clean sim.
If you've never tried it for a jazz tone then you're missing out on the best jazz tone the Axe has to offer IMO.
Tips:
Turn the Bright Switch Off and start with all tone, gain and master controls at 12:00.
If that's too bright for you then lower the treble or the presence.
If it's too boomy on the bottom end then lower the bass or raise the bass cut in the advanced tab.
I've never heard a better jazz guitar tone anywhere from any amp.

 

[jb70]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

What kind of attention would you think of in that regard?

I'd love to see more sims in that take into consideration the great modern and older jazz players -- Adam Rogers, Rosenwinkle, Wes, Hall, Metheny, Scofield, Martino and Mr, jazz Effect man, Bill Frisell.

I haven't found the bass heavy, warm, clean tone yet. I'm sure it's there, but one of them are present in any of the presets. I guess that's what I'm talking about

all of those guys use pedals into tube amps (with the exception of metheny and maybe jim hall. i think he's been using a polytone lately). i think you can 100% nail those tones if you're comparing an adam rogers recording to a similar recording made with an axe fx. the difference is when you go to see those cats live in a club. the only way i can get those tones live is to use the axe fx in front of a tube amp as a pedalboard. you can also get pretty close using the axe fx through a tube amp and a 1x12 or 2x12 speaker cab. i don't think the frfr route is the way to go in this instance.

 

[gsegal]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

That's the thing about the axe is that I don't need racks of equalizers, the axe has an amazing amount of tone shaping available even without the sims. That's awesome that you are that happy with the sims! I just don't see the huge advantage in it unless you are playing venues that have big PA's and the axe gives you more control over the sound.

I do lots of gigs too w/o the Axe too, like a regular big band I do in a small club where there's just not enough space allotted to me to bring in my Axe rig. There's no room for any pedals either. It's just guitar into combo amp with 1 cable. But I'd rather be using the Axe. It sounds better, just for a basic clean sound.
Actually on Monday (we play the last Monday of every month at The Rex in Toronto) I'm actually going to try to take the Axe in there this time. I've only got 4 rack spaces worth of stuff in my rack but I've been using a 6-space rack. With the 4-space rack I intend to buy it'll be a bit easier to set up my Axe rig on that stage. I just won't bring the foot-controller.

But you're not planning on using a scaled down guitar-amp-pedals rig. You're taking the Axe with you anyway.
*I* can't see the advantage in doing *that*.

The advantages to using the Axe with a lightweight ss power amp and a small guitar cab are (again):
1. Great sound in any venue.
2. Light weight and portable.
3. Fast and easy set-up and tear-down.
4. No tubes to futz with.
Etc.

Most jazz guitar players I know are deeply concerned about light-weight, portability, and fast set-up/tear-down.
Most guys don't even have cars and have to take public transit to their gigs with their archtops and the Polytones in tow.
I'm the only jazz guy around here who's willing to even lug a 4-space rack and a speaker cabinet around with me.
You seem to actually want to take a bunch of gear with you and spend lots of time setting it up and tearing it down.
Obviously, I'm not likely to change your mind about any of this. I'm just trying to give you my own perspective about your decision.

BTW
I noticed that of the amp sims you said you've worked with that you did not mention the USA Clean sim.
If you've never tried it for a jazz tone then you're missing out on the best jazz tone the Axe has to offer IMO.
Tips:
Turn the Bright Switch Off and start with all tone, gain and master controls at 12:00.
If that's too bright for you then lower the treble or the presence.
If it's too boomy on the bottom end then lower the bass or raise the bass cut in the advanced tab.
I've never heard a better jazz guitar tone anywhere from any amp.

I really don't think there is that much difference in weight between my rig and yours. How much does your EVM 12 weigh? How about the power amp? If I'm using a port city cab which weighs around 20lbs and the pearl head which is about 10 lbs, my 2 space gator and a midi footswich that's as light and compact as you can get. I can put that on a cart and take public transportation if needed. The amp I'm using on the video weighs 30 lbs also and no power amp needed. I live in NY so I need a light weigh rig no matter what. The other thins I have tried every sim in the axe and they sound ok but I have never been a boogie guy I use to use the bogner clean sim for my base jazz sound. If you never heard a port city pearl try to find a place that carries them in your area and ring your axe fX there and see if you can get there. We tried but with no success. That amp is built for pristine clean and really warm, its a great canvas for tone shaping with the axe. I probably won't change your mind either but doesn't hurt to try things.

 

[joegold]

Re: decided going back to amp and using the axe for fx is fo

i'm also a modern jazz player and i'm in agreement with the OP. i've tried the axe fx through a bunch of fr's, the power amp section of a mesa boogie mark IV, and in front of a port city rig and i much prefer the latter. the fr route is cool if you're in a cover band or a rock player or are in a situation where you have additional monitoring capabilities. like the OP, i use a clean tone 95% of the time. it is my base tone, my voice. i'm relying soley on my rig for amplification on all of my gigs (no additional monitoring) and i've found that the best setup for my situation is to use the axe fx in front of a tube amp as a virtual pedalboard. the results that i'm getting are astounding. add to that the portability and flexibility of my rig and i couldn't be happier. i have a head, a 1x12 cab (my guitar stand, expression pedal, and a power strip all fit in the pocket of my tuki cover), my 2 space gator rack (my LF jr, cables, and AC adaptor all fit in the pocket), and my guitar. that's it! i'm the type of guy who doesn't like having multiple rigs and lots of extra gear laying around and this particular rig has let me streamline everything.

Next time try it with a *hi-quality solid state power amp* into your MKIV's cabinet or better yet an open-back cab with an EVM-12L in it. Most MKIV combos used the Celestion C90.

The MKIV's power section is designed to *colour* the sound extensively. It's designed specifically to work with the MKIV's preamp. Even set for full power, pentode, simul-class operation it will break up if you hit it hard enough with loud block chording. Even set up like that it will not be flat.
Still, using the Axe's USA amp sims with power amp sims defeated you should have been able to come very close to any sound that the MKIV's preamp is capable of producing.

AGAIN: Playing electric guitar through an FRFR system is a whole other ballgame, feel-wise, compared to playing through a real guitar cab.

I also hope you realize that by having the Axe completely in front of your preamp that your preamp is colouring the Axe's studio grade reverbs, delays, chorus, etc.
And if you ever do pop gigs where you need to turn up the treble on your preamp then all your stomp-type effects like Drive will need to be adjusted to the new preamp settings.
Etc.
I can't really see the advantage to using the Axe only for pre-preamp effects along with a foot-controller. There are lots of other floor-based multi-fx units that can just as good a job for that application at 1/3 of the price of the Axe and with easier set-up.
Also, by running through the Axe first you need to realize that you're digitizing your signal, so that precious tube amp you're using is not really seeing the same analog hi-z signal that makes for all that roots tone that guys are looking for.
And you happen to be taking significantly more gear to all your gigs that requires more set-up/tear-down time than I am.

My rig is a small rack (Axe + power conditioner + 1U ART power amp).
I open back 1 X 12" speaker cabinet.
I FCB1010 foot-controller with phantom power capability.
When setting up, I plug the power conditioner into the wall outlet, my guitar into the Axe, the speaker cable from the power amp to the speaker, a single MIDI cable to the foot-controller, and I'm done.
I have a bag that I carry the cables and the foot-controller in.

I owned a MKIV for several years but sold it before I got my Ultra. So I know these amps pretty well.
At the time I bought the Ultra I was still using a Triaxis through a Mesa Simul-Satellite with an EVM-12L in it.
The result of every listening test I could muster was that the Axe, when run through a ss power amp and into the EVM-12L cabinet, could be made to sound as good and in most cases better than the Mesa rig through that same cabinet for any style of music.
And the Axe, when used like I've described, is *tons* better than any amp I've ever used for a straight ahead dark jazz tone at any volume. With the right power amp you've got virtually infinite headroom for your clean jazz tones.