Das Metall - more accurate to VH4 than VH4 emulation?!?!?!

Speculum Speculorum

Speculum Speculorum

Power User
View attachment 17390

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

It's not that surprising to me, as I like the FAS Modern amps for high gain stuff better than a lot of their "counterparts", but the difference with the Diezel amps simply continue to elude me. Das Metall gets so much closer to recordings of the VH4 (and heck - even the Herbert) that I've listened to, I don't know what else to say.

I can only imagine that there was some whispered conversation that went down in a torch-lit Masonic hall between Cliff Chase and Peter Diezel:

Cliff: "It's good to see you, Pete. You want another glass of scotch?"

Peter: "Brandy would be nice, actually."

Cliff: "You got it, brother. So why did you want to call this meeting?"

Peter: "Well... to be frank, Cliff, I've heard some things... disturbing things. This new MIMIC tech, and something about bashing your skull - coming to a catharsis about cathode followers and amp dynamics? I'm not sure I like where this is going."

Cliff: "What do you mean? I'm just singing the song of my people. It's what they want, you know."

Peter: "It's... Well... I didn't spend all this time studying physics, Enochian language, and electrical engineering so somebody could come along, get a noggin' floggin' and copy my work. You understand, right?"

Cliff: "... I think we've worked something out."

Peter: "Oh?"

Cliff: "Yeah. You see, the Das Metall was already close to the VH4, some might even say better - "

Peter: " - EXCUSE ME?"

Cliff: " - CALM DOWN, PETER! Go sit in the car, if you have to... Anyway... so many people have been distracted by the VH4 models that they haven't even gone back to Das Metall. On top of it, we've got 2 FAS Moderns now and an amp that emulates Meshuggah's happy place. I think your secrets are safe my friend. You can continue your search of the quantum realms unmolested."

Peter: "Eeeeeexcellent... shall we switch to tequila?"

Cliff: "The night is still young."

:lol :lol :lol
 
THREAD BUMP FOR RECORDINGS!

I wanted to bump this thread so that I could post up a little something showing how drastically different the VH4 is from the FAS idealized version, Das Metall. The cab choice is the same for both amps - a combo of the OH Mesa V32 SM57 and R121 (British modern 1 on both, to be exact). Mesa cabs are, arguably, the most popular cabinet for the VH4 - some like them better than the matching cab, is my understanding.

Here are the amp settings:

View attachment 17421

View attachment 17422

And here's the audio:



For the sake of comparing them in their most neutral states, I set up both amps dialed up to noon on the EQ. I even switched Das Metall over to Pentode tube modeling to better approximate the VH4 model we've got on the Axe. The only significant difference is that I HAD TO turn the presence on the VH4 up much higher, and could have probably done even more, because it simply sounded like total mush down at 5. My guitar is loaded with BKP Painkillers, which are pretty aggressive and can burn a hole in your head, so I know for sure that the guitar is not the weak link here. There is no post-processing on the clips. The only EQ done is in the cab block - low cut at 80. High cut at 10500.

My overall impression of the VH4 model is pretty poor. It's wooly in the mids, loose in the low end, and the highs are really lackluster. I can get something slightly better if I pretty much max out the presence and dial up a really high dynamic presence and treble, but shouldn't the amp sound closer to it's real-world counterpart right from the get-go? When I look at common settings for high gain applications of the VH4 (even from the manual for the amp itself), I can't imagine people would use them if they sound like what I'm getting out of this modeled version. I can sculpt a better tone with lots of post-processing EQ, running it through a multi-band compressor, saturation, etc. But I've heard so many raw tones from the VH4 that sound so great, I just start to wonder what exactly is up with this model on the Axe-fx II.

If anybody has some more convincing recordings of the VH4 post-11 FW, please do share them. I'd like to see if people are doing something different or if maybe I'm just at a loss with this model. Thanks for reading, and do share your thoughts.
 
I agree Dizzy Ch3 & 4 sound pretty mellow in the high end. I dont have a real VH4 here to compare, so I cant comment on the models accuracy. I'm not sure what to think, considering that the Metallica Load / Reload albums that allegedly use that amp sound rather sludgy like the model.

Personally, I've been doing what you're doing, and cranking the presence and treble. I've been using the stock CALI and Mills Afterburner IRs. Also, I like using kdotx's IRs of his Diezel cab:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-user-cabs-irs/72199-diezel-4-x-12-g12k100-sm-57-ir.html

Also, my ears may be playing tricks, but the depth control really seems to interact with the high end a little. Maybe dial depth up and cut the lows in the cab block to compensate?
 
Well, I spent some time working on Ch. 3 of the VH4, and I feel like I'm getting closer. I changed out the mesa r121 IR for the OH CB SM57 British T2, and that really helped with the low end. Still, the settings are pretty extreme in comparison to a lot of the settings I've seen on the actual amp. I also have a scoop in the low mids, the high pass is set to 90, and the low pass is at 9000. Here are the amp's settings:

View attachment 17433

And here's what it sounds like (excuse total crap playing):



So I think it's getting somewhere. I'll probably back up on the depth a little bit or for recording purposes, run a multi-band compressor on it. I guess I'm just weirded out by how extreme I've had to set the amp to get it closer to what I've heard from the actual amp. Wild.
 
Man, those pickups must really be hot, because I don't anywhere near that kind of gain with any of mine, with such low amp gain, let alone without a pre-boost.

I like the VH-4 tone. The Das is, as always, too bright. Regarding your second clip, I never turn the mid below 2.5, so I can't get behind that tone at all. And the need to run the depth so high, especially while having a cab low cut of 90, suggests to me your IRs are taking all the piss out of the bass and low mids. (I usually set the cab low cut at 100; the lows under three but no more than five, and treble and presence a bit below what you have there.) But I think all three tones will work in a standard mix.
 
Last edited:
was goofing around with Das Metall this evening...

I have to agree that it does have some magic about it
funnily enough, prior to the VH4 models showing up.. this one was my first choice riffing amp...

I'm seriously considering going back to it...
thanks for reminding me how great this one is..
it kinda fell out of my radar..
 
Speculum Speculorum said:
<img src="http://forum.fractalaudio.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17390"/>

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

It's not that surprising to me, as I like the FAS Modern amps for high gain stuff better than a lot of their "counterparts", but the difference with the Diezel amps simply continue to elude me. Das Metall gets so much closer to recordings of the VH4 (and heck - even the Herbert) that I've listened to, I don't know what else to say.

I can only imagine that there was some whispered conversation that went down in a torch-lit Masonic hall between Cliff Chase and Peter Diezel:

Cliff: "It's good to see you, Pete. You want another glass of scotch?"

Peter: "Brandy would be nice, actually."

Cliff: "You got it, brother. So why did you want to call this meeting?"

Peter: "Well... to be frank, Cliff, I've heard some things... disturbing things. This new MIMIC tech, and something about bashing your skull - coming to a catharsis about cathode followers and amp dynamics? I'm not sure I like where this is going."

Cliff: "What do you mean? I'm just singing the song of my people. It's what they want, you know."

Peter: "It's... Well... I didn't spend all this time studying physics, Enochian language, and electrical engineering so somebody could come along, get a noggin' floggin' and copy my work. You understand, right?"

Cliff: "... I think we've worked something out."

Peter: "Oh?"

Cliff: "Yeah. You see, the Das Metall was already close to the VH4, some might even say better - "

Peter: " - EXCUSE ME?"

Cliff: " - CALM DOWN, PETER! Go sit in the car, if you have to... Anyway... so many people have been distracted by the VH4 models that they haven't even gone back to Das Metall. On top of it, we've got 2 FAS Moderns now and an amp that emulates Meshuggah's happy place. I think your secrets are safe my friend. You can continue your search of the quantum realms unmolested."

Peter: "Eeeeeexcellent... shall we switch to tequila?"

Cliff: "The night is still young."

:lol :lol :lol
Click to expand...

So I guess you traveled East to West and West to East to find the correct settings? Hahahahahaha!!!!

So Mote It Be Brother, SMIB...

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
Yeah, and after messing around with the Das Metall patch I was cooking up, it's just so much more full and satisfying. Truly another FAS feat of awesome.

Of course, my go-to amps for high gain are the FAS Modern II, FAS Modern, Das Metall, 5150, Recto Red - all in that order. The VH4 doesn't really fly on my radar after relentless tweaking.

And Loc - it's definitely not my IRs. There is something funky as hell going on with this amp from my perspective. I wish it were different, as I love the sounds that others get out of the Diezel amp sims, but I just can't get there.
 
I agree with your assessment on the 2 models. That first post was seriously one of the best i've seen on a forum anywhere :lol
If you really want an aggressive sound with the VH4 (and the das metal for that matter) use the factory 62 V30 with a 421 mic and the 4x12 Recto 2 Ultra user IR with an 87a. Killer cab combo for any amp that plays well with a V30. I believe the VH4 was also meant to pair up with a G12K100 according to the wiki so the factory 54 cab is an interesting match as well, although I prefer the V30's for high gain almost every time.
 
((( edited: I had to re-do them to match volumes, plus add one I forgot about )))


I prefer a bit more dimension:




And, sculpted a little, using a post geq - actually within WMP (-1 @ 250, -3 @ 500, -1 @ 1k, +1 @ 2k, +3 @ 4k), and recorded the sys output into Audacity :




And the same scheme using a post cab geq block in the Axe:

 

Attachments

  • Dizzy 4 u22.jpg
    Dizzy 4 u22.jpg
    81.8 KB · Views: 57
Last edited:
My mother always said I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I gave it one more shot. :shock

I went ahead and stared working with more neutral settings on the VH4 and sculpted the Das Metall so it was a little warmer sounding. I changed the OwnHammer Checkerboard T2 SM57 out for the T1 SM57 IR on both presets. I found with these amps it seemed to make the mids sit a little better, the lows a little tighter, and the highs just a bit more sparkly. I did try out some of the stock cabs, and I can see how with some work I could get to where I'd be happy, but I thought for now I'd just keep it consistent and do what I've been doing. At any rate, I'm having a problem uploading picture files right now, so here's a short description of both:

VH4:

Input Drive: 7
Bass: 3.7
Mid: 4.33
Treb: 8.18
Presence: 8.19
Depth: 1.5
MV: 2.52

Nothing else changed other than "Thunk" and "motor dive", set to taste

Das Metall:

Input Drive: 2.2
Bass: 5.16
Mid: 5.06
Treb: 4.8
Presence: 5.04
Depth: 2,83
MV: 3.54

Again, thunk and motor drive to taste.

And here's the sound:



Oh, and Loc - I can see where those sounds work, but to me it's just not the tone I'm after. And yes, my pickups are bare knuckle painkillers, and they are pretty stinking hot. Lately, I've found that boosting the amp input with a drive is just not going to work for me - it harshes my pickups mids and actually makes the guitars harder to mix, if that makes any sense. Besides, the tones I'm after are usually done without a drive pedal. Call me old fashioned, I guess.

In summary, my heart of heart wants me to love the VH4 model in the Axe-fx II. I suppose I've hyped that particular piece of kit with my unabashed love for the artists who use the amp, and it's probably infected my brain in some way. But, when it really comes down to it, I just feel like the Das Metall out-VH4s the VH4 model, if that makes any sense at all. The lows are tighter. The mids are cleaner. The highs more sparkly... To put it simply:

Dear Dizzy,

I'm leaving you for Das. We've actually been seeing each other for a while now, and it's been hot and steamy. If you'd been paying any attention you'd have known a long time ago. She's only two slots down from where you live, for Christ's sake. But I digress...

She understands me more than you ever could. I like her big, fat, bottom, her trim and showy mid-section, and her wonderful high shelf. Yes. I'll admit it's shallow. But it's not like we have kids together or anything. We may have had moments of pleasure together, but mostly I feel like we just sit and argue over minute details until I don't even want to touch your thunk, or let you near the motor drive ever again. Sometimes things just change. Maybe, in the future, if you can compete with her nasty, awesome, dynamic-throat-punch thing she's got going on, we can hook up, or even continue this relationship. But until then, I'll only remember you when I've been drinking. Maybe I'll even text you. But please, don't let me into your house if I show up shit-faced.

Goodbye For Now :cry,
Spec Spec
 
VH4 is a tricky amp to recreate. I know this - having owned and still own several iterations thereof - it's one of the most unique, hard-to-capture animals out there in amp land. Recording's one thing; man, "in the room"? Next to impossible.

Some serious pixie dust on them heads.

Mo
 
jsl2h said:
I agree with your assessment on the 2 models. That first post was seriously one of the best i've seen on a forum anywhere :lol
If you really want an aggressive sound with the VH4 (and the das metal for that matter) use the factory 62 V30 with a 421 mic and the 4x12 Recto 2 Ultra user IR with an 87a. Killer cab combo for any amp that plays well with a V30. I believe the VH4 was also meant to pair up with a G12K100 according to the wiki so the factory 54 cab is an interesting match as well, although I prefer the V30's for high gain almost every time.
Click to expand...

4x12 Recto 2 Ultra user IR with an 87a? What is the origin of this IR, ie. where can I get?
 
It's in the Axe-fx II. I think it's 64. In fact, I'm certain of it.

It's a good sound. Like I said, with some tweaking I could see where it would be feisty. My guitar is a bit weird though. It took me a while to figure out it's sound and what I've got to do to get it where I like it.

Or maybe I'm just slow. :D
 
Spec Spec - dude.... I got to say that after last night's noodlage..
I think I'll be heading the same way...

my riff tone on day 1 with the Axe was
amp left = 5150
amp right = DasM

today it is:
amp left = 5153Red
amp right = VH4ch4 [occasionally swapping out with Herbert3 - which ever fairs better in the latest fw drop]

fw11.03 has been a revelation
I reckon it's time to re-try my day choices.. see how they shape up today...
and then delta them against the VH4ch4, Herbert3 and 5153Red

ahh yeah... and I have an experimental preset with the 5153Blue to the left and VH4ch3 to the right...
that one's sounding pretty serious actually
 
I think your last is much better, all round. I think the inherent presence in the Das is what you're after, though could possibly be had in the VH4 by adding the bright or/and turning the input drive down some and adding saturation.

I don't have the OH pack to try those IRs, but I tried your amp settings, and am finding interesting things. Without a boost, it's a much mellower sustain. A lighter distortion, and gutsier.

(( never mind, I'm on a different direction...))
 
Last edited:
I've also noticed a weird disparity between the VH4 and Das Metal models. Something about the VH4 is 'off'. It's definitely a tricky beast to tame compared to the Das Metal.

Carvin DC727 loaded with BKP Blackhawks -> Gate -> Drv -> Amp (VH4) -> Filter (notched at 11k) -> Cab (#48 w/ 58 DYN)



If anyone wants the patch, PM me and I'll send a link.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom