Controlling parameters with midi device like Midi Twister?

D

dschaaf

Experienced
Hi, I am wondering if anyone has utilized a programmable midi device like this (https://store.djtechtools.com/products/midi-fighter-twister ) to sit on your pedalboard and act as a quick edit for parameters like drive, level, delay mix, reverb % etc. It could either map to specific actions of possibly just replicate what appears in the Global Performance page as far as pre-assigned on the fly parameters.

Thanks,
Derek
 
I say don't go there. Fractal is ill-equipped to handles this in any graceful manner because of all this:
  • Front panel or Axe-Edit cannot override mapped external controllers. Forgot to bring your MIDI controller or it breaks? Tough luck, only way to adjust the mapped parameters is to remove the external controller mappings.
  • Fractal does not support relative MIDI CC values (<64 for "value down", >64 for "value up"). This makes editing saved preset values from the saved value impossible because the value of the MIDI controller determines the next value. Let's say your MIDI knob is currently pointing at value that is the equivalent of 7.0. You load a preset where your assigned parameter is set to 5.0. You turn the MIDI controller knob clockwise, it jumps to 7.0 instead of moving up from 5.0. If relative values were supported, Axe-Fx would be the source of truth for current value.
  • There's only 16 external controllers. While this seems like a lot, it's really not. You can't map this contextually so if you want to control e.g amp and a few fx, you quickly run out of knobs. If Fractal allowed controlling these as sets of control mappings it would be way more flexible. The Performance view is too limited IMO.
  • There's no support for global control mappings. They need to be made per preset. With global mappings you could map them once and if a mapped parameter does not exist, the MIDI controller's knob simply does nothing.
  • There's no support for replicating front panel knobs for context-based editing. E.g if you were in Drive block you could use your MIDI knob controller to adjust settings, then you go to Amp block and MIDI controller adjusts those. This would be a fantastic feature for working together with Axe-Edit because physical knobs are infinitely better than virtual knobs.
Yes, there's wishlist items for all of this.
 
laxu said:
I say don't go there. Fractal is ill-equipped to handles this in any graceful manner because of all this:
  • Front panel or Axe-Edit cannot override mapped external controllers. Forgot to bring your MIDI controller or it breaks? Tough luck, only way to adjust the mapped parameters is to remove the external controller mappings.
  • Fractal does not support relative MIDI CC values (<64 for "value down", >64 for "value up"). This makes editing saved preset values from the saved value impossible because the value of the MIDI controller determines the next value. Let's say your MIDI knob is currently pointing at value that is the equivalent of 7.0. You load a preset where your assigned parameter is set to 5.0. You turn the MIDI controller knob clockwise, it jumps to 7.0 instead of moving up from 5.0. If relative values were supported, Axe-Fx would be the source of truth for current value.
  • There's only 16 external controllers. While this seems like a lot, it's really not. You can't map this contextually so if you want to control e.g amp and a few fx, you quickly run out of knobs. If Fractal allowed controlling these as sets of control mappings it would be way more flexible. The Performance view is too limited IMO.
  • There's no support for global control mappings. They need to be made per preset. With global mappings you could map them once and if a mapped parameter does not exist, the MIDI controller's knob simply does nothing.
  • There's no support for replicating front panel knobs for context-based editing. E.g if you were in Drive block you could use your MIDI knob controller to adjust settings, then you go to Amp block and MIDI controller adjusts those. This would be a fantastic feature for working together with Axe-Edit because physical knobs are infinitely better than virtual knobs.
Yes, there's wishlist items for all of this.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for the feedback.

D
 
dschaaf said:
Hi, I am wondering if anyone has utilized a programmable midi device like this (https://store.djtechtools.com/products/midi-fighter-twister ) to sit on your pedalboard and act as a quick edit for parameters like drive, level, delay mix, reverb % etc. It could either map to specific actions of possibly just replicate what appears in the Global Performance page as far as pre-assigned on the fly parameters.

Thanks,
Derek
Click to expand...
This can be done with an external controller, but it has all the drawbacks Laxu metioned. Despite the drawbacks I find myself using them, but I completely agree there could be improvements.
 
I hate editing on the fly with the Axe-Edit and a laptop. The Performance Pages are helpful but still limiting to some extent. You could use a midi controller like the Twister albeit with the limitations as has been mentioned. I think you would need to create your own presets with those limitations in mind to reduce the issues. Hopefully Fractal will improve upon this in some way in the future.
 
The most simple fix would be just change it so that external controllers do not cause Axe-Edit and front panel to become unusable for those mapped controls. That would go a long way.

I have two very different rigs atm. One is the Axe-Fx 3 + FC-12. The other is a bunch of Strymon pedals on a pedalboard. It's just so much more pleasant to work with the Strymon when you want to experiment with sounds, quickly tweak things a bit when there's dedicated knobs for almost everything. I find this allows me to be much more creative with the sounds of those pedals than I am when using my Axe-Fx where I feel like I am a programmer rather than a (crappy) artist.

I'm not talking about live use here, I'm talking about just playing around with effects without constantly having to pick up a mouse or type in numbers with a keyboard. With some simple improvements to external MIDI controller support the Axe-Fx could be much more pleasant to work with and closer to that pedalboard experience.

I really wish Fractal would invest some dev effort into improving this side because we could have excellent workflows that way.
 
laxu said:
The most simple fix would be just change it so that external controllers do not cause Axe-Edit and front panel to become unusable for those mapped controls. That would go a long way.

I have two very different rigs atm. One is the Axe-Fx 3 + FC-12. The other is a bunch of Strymon pedals on a pedalboard. It's just so much more pleasant to work with the Strymon when you want to experiment with sounds, quickly tweak things a bit when there's dedicated knobs for almost everything. I find this allows me to be much more creative with the sounds of those pedals than I am when using my Axe-Fx where I feel like I am a programmer rather than a (crappy) artist.

I'm not talking about live use here, I'm talking about just playing around with effects without constantly having to pick up a mouse or type in numbers with a keyboard. With some simple improvements to external MIDI controller support the Axe-Fx could be much more pleasant to work with and closer to that pedalboard experience.

I really wish Fractal would invest some dev effort into improving this side because we could have excellent workflows that way.
Click to expand...
Your reading my mind. That's exactly some of my thoughts on this subject. Not even sure midi would be the best implementation to have a knob controller but that's what we have for now. Maybe use of the USB comm could be implemented to a hardware knob and possible slider controller. In any case, I still think that 16 knobs controlled by midi would go a long way to address a hardware type controller. There are many reasons why guitarist stick with amps and pedals and having hardware control via knobs and sliders is one of them. They are listening to the sound and not necessarily looking at the numbers when making changes. If Fractal does implement some better external midi control or performance features they could provide an option to reduce the resolution of the control to be more like a real amp or pedal knob.
 
laxu said:
I say don't go there. Fractal is ill-equipped to handles this in any graceful manner because of all this:
  • Front panel or Axe-Edit cannot override mapped external controllers. Forgot to bring your MIDI controller or it breaks? Tough luck, only way to adjust the mapped parameters is to remove the external controller mappings.
  • Fractal does not support relative MIDI CC values (<64 for "value down", >64 for "value up"). This makes editing saved preset values from the saved value impossible because the value of the MIDI controller determines the next value. Let's say your MIDI knob is currently pointing at value that is the equivalent of 7.0. You load a preset where your assigned parameter is set to 5.0. You turn the MIDI controller knob clockwise, it jumps to 7.0 instead of moving up from 5.0. If relative values were supported, Axe-Fx would be the source of truth for current value.
  • There's only 16 external controllers. While this seems like a lot, it's really not. You can't map this contextually so if you want to control e.g amp and a few fx, you quickly run out of knobs. If Fractal allowed controlling these as sets of control mappings it would be way more flexible. The Performance view is too limited IMO.
  • There's no support for global control mappings. They need to be made per preset. With global mappings you could map them once and if a mapped parameter does not exist, the MIDI controller's knob simply does nothing.
  • There's no support for replicating front panel knobs for context-based editing. E.g if you were in Drive block you could use your MIDI knob controller to adjust settings, then you go to Amp block and MIDI controller adjusts those. This would be a fantastic feature for working together with Axe-Edit because physical knobs are infinitely better than virtual knobs.
Yes, there's wishlist items for all of this.
Click to expand...
Yup, I do see all these limitations. I wonder how fracpad manages to avoid all this. Does the developer have access to a more extended sysex spec ?
 
toneseeker911 said:
Yup, I do see all these limitations. I wonder how fracpad manages to avoid all this. Does the developer have access to a more extended sysex spec ?
Click to expand...
Afaik they have reverse engineered it themselves plus gotten some tips from Fractal.
 
Thanks everyone for the input. Although I would love to use the Midi Twister in the interim, what I think would be amazing is if Fractal offered a midi unit that looked like a pedal board with maybe 8 or 10 different shaped "pedals" (or maybe 2 different sizes) that allowed to to allocate/map what effects and parameters you wanted to control per pedal. That way you would look down at what appear to be a traditional pedalboard (of sorts) and twist knobs the way you normally would. It addition all parameters would default to when they were saved in the preset so the tube drive gain knob saved at 4.5 would start at 4.5 and allow you to go up or down as opposed to forcing to a common starting point.
Thanks,
D
 
dschaaf said:
Thanks everyone for the input. Although I would love to use the Midi Twister in the interim, what I think would be amazing is if Fractal offered a midi unit that looked like a pedal board with maybe 8 or 10 different shaped "pedals" (or maybe 2 different sizes) that allowed to to allocate/map what effects and parameters you wanted to control per pedal. That way you would look down at what appear to be a traditional pedalboard (of sorts) and twist knobs the way you normally would. It addition all parameters would default to when they were saved in the preset so the tube drive gain knob saved at 4.5 would start at 4.5 and allow you to go up or down as opposed to forcing to a common starting point.
Thanks,
D
Click to expand...
I think you have the right idea about a separate controller that changes parameters with knobs like in pedals etc. The concept would be somewhat analogist to Fractals external foot switch units except that instead of switching your are able to control block or amp parameters externally like you would on a real amp or pedal. My preference would be for the fractal foot switch unit and or the FM3/FM9 on the floor and the external parameter controller available on a stand/table of some sort to reach easily either by sitting or standing. This is one reason why some looking for an upper priced modeler might choose a Kemper over a Fractal unit. The Kemper head unit has many of the standard amp and most used FX controls via knobs right on the unit. Not only that it has very decent midi implementation for external control. However upon writing this I am sticking with my FM9 for now. Hopefully Fractal will do something about this in the near future.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom