Carvin DCM1000L vs. ART SLA-2

True, but guitar speakers are rated very conservatively. I guess its partly down to how guitar amps are rated.

amps are generally rated clean, but we all know they kick out much more power when driven hard. it would be no good rating a speaker at 50W, then someone connecting a 50w head to it - for that head to reach 90W when driven and then blow the speaker. A speaker rated at 50W would need to be able to take a cooking 50W head powering it without trouble.

Rightly or wrongly,it does mean that guitar speakers in general are actually capable of much higher power handling than the specification implies.
 
MotherSea said:
Wow, this is an old thread. I am now using the Matrix with the Axe, and absolutely love it. I also have the DCM1540L which I use for bass. I opted for this one because it is class A/B and the 1000 is class D. It also matched up better with the bass cab I have in terms of wattage, and I figure it will be quite a versatile amp in the future if I want to power a PA with it, etc.
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I'm starting to think about this, and like you and 6L6C, I'm leaning to the 1540L vs 1000 because of Class A/B vs. D. While the buzz around the Matrix is interesting, price-wise it's around $250 more (comparing Carvin's prices w/ Tone Merchants).

Is it really worth the +250? What about getting warranty work done on the Matrix if bought in the US?
 
Warranty work is no issue. Return it to TM and they will ship to UK for repair I believe. If not Mat/Andy are very good. Return it to them at cost - they will repair and ship back free. If fault is not user induced (you'd be surprised how easy it is to tell, and how many people feed speaker with too low impedance or pluf the wrong power supply into the amp !!!) they will refund your initial shipping as well.

Is it worth an extra $250 ? only you can tell. Is a VHT 2:50:2 worth more than a Peavey 20/20 ? is the AFX standard worth more than an 11R? its all subjective. Having never tried the Carvin products I cant even give a personal opinion. It is worth more than the Art SLAs or Rocktrons IMO though - and I have tried those.
 
romanianreaper said:
Hey John, how does your DCM200L compare with the Matrix? I'm using a Mosvalve MV-962 right now and leave the power amp sims off. Are you able to use the power amp sims with either the DCM200L or Matrix?
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you, your post slid by me.
I always ran both amps with power sim's, I can see were Paul has already done it with the Matrix and got good results. I have a feeling doing it with the Carvin would not have the same results. The Matrix has a some MoJo to it (like a tube amp), the Carvin to me, is more straight ahead and neutral, which is not a bad thing just different.
tlainhart said:
I'm starting to think about this, and like you and 6L6C, I'm leaning to the 1540L vs 1000 because of Class A/B vs. D. While the buzz around the Matrix is interesting, price-wise it's around $250 more (comparing Carvin's prices w/ Tone Merchants).

Is it really worth the +250? What about getting warranty work done on the Matrix if bought in the US?
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Personally, yes I believe it’s worth the extra $250. I wrote a short review of the Matrix when I first got it, during the “Honeymoon phase” but I still stand by what I had wrote.
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-cabs/41306-carvin-dcm200l-vs-matrix-gt800fx.html#post554096
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Is it worth an extra $250 ? only you can tell.
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Right - after writing that I realized it was a lame question.

What was going through my head was the phenomenon I've seen on the forum over the years, where a new piece of FRFR gear comes on the scene, everyone jumps on it, the honeymoon subsides and it falls out of favor - I'm thinking the QSC HSC series, the 12ma, the SLA2, etc. Note that I'm not at all slagging the Matrix - just wondering about that phenomenon and the Matrix relative to it.

I appreciate the time that you, 6L6C and yek have put in for reviews and giving folks feedback - that's a help to the community.
 
tlainhart said:
Is it really worth the +250? What about getting warranty work done on the Matrix if bought in the US?
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You know, I haven't had the chance to try the 1540L with the Axe yet (been using it for bass exclusively). I will be doing a comparison this Friday - will post results here.
 
jefferski said:
Update... well, it became clear in about 30 seconds at soundcheck last night that the 200L isn't going to be loud enough for my needs. I had the vol cranked all the way up and it wasn't very loud at all. It might be ok for a practice space, but not live. Then I reconnected my 50:50, and on low power (15 watts) with the amp on 6 and my guitar only on about 4 it was already as loud as the Carvin. I could bring a second cab, but the point was to save weight ;-) Sure, our soundman can boost me FOH as much as he needs, but if we ever play without him I'd be s.o.l. if I used the Carvin. I don't need a whole lot of volume, but this really doesn't cut it.

Too bad, I *really* liked how light my rack was. I might try the DCM1000L but since I have a 60w cab I can only run it at about 35% anyway so it probably won't be much louder than the 200. I wonder if the Matrix is louder when it's pushing 60w than a Carvin would be... ?
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That sucks, I'm using mine with an frfr speaker, so it can handle much more power, so I'm able to bridge the Carvin and at 8ohms it is rated for 200W, which should be much better than 60W for keeping up with the band. But i have rehearsal this weekend for my guest spot on NYE, so I guess we'll see how it works!! If it doesn't, i'll just have no personal stage monitor at the show...as I just sold my ART SLA-2....
 
wake911 said:
That sucks, I'm using mine with an frfr speaker, so it can handle much more power, so I'm able to bridge the Carvin and at 8ohms it is rated for 200W, which should be much better than 60W for keeping up with the band. But i have rehearsal this weekend for my guest spot on NYE, so I guess we'll see how it works!! If it doesn't, i'll just have no personal stage monitor at the show...as I just sold my ART SLA-2....
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That should work for you much better than my setup did. I'll be interested to hear how it goes!

I tested mine at home again yesterday, when I wasn't rushed before a gig. Unfortunately, I found the same results. I could crank it up all the way and it was loud in a small room, but I could still stand right next to it, which isn't nearly loud enough for stage. Boosting the output of my rack compressor, and/or setting it to +4 Line level, only sent it into peak protection shutdown mode that much quicker.

Now I get to decide between the DCM1000L or the Matrix (or just stay w/ the Mesa, which I love except for the weight). The DCM1540 is just too much power for my setup.

BTW, can someone explain the difference between Class A/B and Class D? (in simple "this is how it will affect your sound" type terms ;-)
 
jefferski said:
That should work for you much better than my setup did. I'll be interested to hear how it goes!

I tested mine at home again yesterday, when I wasn't rushed before a gig. Unfortunately, I found the same results. I could crank it up all the way and it was loud in a small room, but I could still stand right next to it, which isn't nearly loud enough for stage. Boosting the output of my rack compressor, and/or setting it to +4 Line level, only sent it into peak protection shutdown mode that much quicker.

Now I get to decide between the DCM1000L or the Matrix (or just stay w/ the Mesa, which I love except for the weight). The DCM1540 is just too much power for my setup.

BTW, can someone explain the difference between Class A/B and Class D? (in simple "this is how it will affect your sound" type terms ;-)
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A Class A/B amp is heavier, draws more average power from the line, and generates more heat than a Class D amp.

Some people think that Class A/B amps sound better. If the weight isn't an issue, it might be a safer choice.

That being said, I've been gigging with Class D amps for about ten years. Mine sound great, put out a huge amount of power, weigh almost nothing, and have never let me down.

Acoustic Image

Acoustic Image

One more comment:

You are far more likely to damage a speaker with an underrated solid-state amp than one with "too much" power. When you drive an SS amp into clipping, it can put out large amounts of high-frequency power, so you really want to keep the amp well within its linear range. By intentionally keeping your amp within the speaker's rated limits, you are actually in more danger, not less. Please note that the tiny amps I referenced above put out 500 watts RMS into their relatively small internal speaker systems.

Danny W.
 
That makes sense about underpowered amps.

The Acoustic Image amps put out a lot of wattage, but the speakers are also rated for 300/600w... so there's a good match there. Not quite the same as running 200+ (or 400+ in the case of the 1540L) into a 60w Vintage 30.
 
lol - Im running the Matrix (at 250W) into a 60W cab with no issues.

Class A/B are not necessarily heavier than Class D Inherently. They do generate more heat and this is why MOST Class A/B and are heavier than Class D. Its the heat sings, and mass needed to cool them rather than the Class itself. There are relatively light Class A/B amps about now that are designed better, with modern materials etc that allow that. There i still a limit to power though - because above a certain level it becomes impractical to use class A/B because of the heat issues (primarily) and power requirements (secondary).

Tonally, Class A/B are widely accepted as the best method for audio. Many people call Class D amps digital. there not, BUT in a way they could be described as such. They (basically) by producing a square wave - which could be described as fully on and fully off (hence the digital analogy). this wave is then processed to produce the required output. Class A, B, and AB amps are analogue in how the work. Their outputs are linear - that is what you get out is the same as what you put in - only larger.

Intrinsically that makes Class A/B amps more musical - and also they use less components. However as always technology moves and the benefits of class D amps (higher output power capabilities, lower heat generation and more efficiency) have led to further work, and the results are getting closer to class A/B amps.

Personally for low power applications i feel Class A/B still has the edge for Audio, but its getting closer and closer. Low power is really 500W or less - however the new cooling techniques and development in Class A/B (led by A/B amps generally sounding better - so the want to produce higher power ones with reasonable weight and heat) have led to amps of 1000W - and occasionally 2000W, while limiting the effects inherent to class A/B design.
 
That's good to know. At the risk of being redundant, are you able to turn the amp up all the way? (not that I'd need to, just wondering).

And thanks for the rest of the AB / D explanation.

Think I need to put in a call to Tone Merchants... ;-)
 
I have my Front panel AFX and my Matrix gain knobs up full. I have then altered the gain in the global output section (which is a soft menu) set so the Matrix is fed the correct signal strength to keep my speakers safe. This depends on the patches gain level as well of course but if there set at similar levels its fine.

My global OP is set around -3db. This allows me to have everything on full, and be driving around 30W without my solo boost - which is +3db, and be driving 60W with the boost. thats into an 8 Ohm cab. Of course if the patches were "hotter" id have to lower the global OP - and if I had a cab capable of more power I could up the global. With my patches I "could" set my global at +3db and be driving 200W into a 4 Ohm 4x12 loaded with 4xV30s.
 
I have the same problem ... make a good amp choice
I have a 4x12 guitar cab with 25w Green Back speakers and I'm intending to take another one in the future
So I think the DCM100L is a good choice because ohms/60w 8 stereo (one cab) and 4 ohms/100w (for two cab) it's a good power ..
why not the art SLA 1 (8 ohms 100w - 130w into 4 ohms) or amps like these?
I know that the real power in stereo 4 ohms for two cabs is twice the declared...so what's wrong with these amps ?
Why everyone has overpowered amps? The problem is no good cabs in my opinion....
 
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SS amps and valve amp are not the same beasts.

A Valve power amp giving say 50W has a volume your happy with. In fact its not pushing 50W when cranked - it may well be 100W or more. Also when it enters its non-linear phase 9where it starts to distort but before you can HEAR that distortion) it sounds musical. when it audibly breaks up its also pleasant.

When a SS amp enteres non-linearity (again before it starts to clip) it starts to sound harsh. when it breaks up (clips) is positivity horrible. The start of that non-lnearity may be 20 or 30% below its max rated power - and you cant afford it to REACH its max rated power at any costs because peaks in dynamics may push it into the horrible peakin distortion.

Consequently, to get a similar volume from a SS amp you need it to produce the CLEAN rated power you require, at probably 30% below its max rated power - and possibly an extra 10% or so for dynamics to be safe. Remember a valve amps max volume is usually achieved when its pushing more than its rated power (up to twice in fact in bursts). So - if you want the same volume from a SA amp as you would get from a 50W valve amp, you need up to 100W of clean power, and that wants to be at 60-70% of the amps max - so 150W would be the minimum really and 200w to be safe.

You may also have a speaker cab rated at 240W (4x12 with V30s say). this may take the peaks of a 100w valve amp, but to drive it hard as it likes you'd need a Ss amp capable of perhaps 350-400W (same calculations as above). Even a 60W cab, which will take a 60W valve amp and therefore its power when driven, would take a 200-250W SS amp to give it the same signal strenght's but staying in that liner zone.

All this explains why some people say Valve watts are louder than SS watts, and why smaller SS PAs get accused of struggling with volume, or sounding harsh at gig levels.

For your 4x12 greenback cab, thats 100W (presumably 4 Ohms). So to drive it with an amp capable of only 100W into that 4 Ohms will mean your only getting 60W or so of clean power - and that in the dynamic peaks - before it struggles. As your peaks could easily by 3-6db, your actual average signal is maybe 20-30W most of the time. The SLA-2 is better, at 200W your going to get 50W or so clean power, but your still well within your speaks capabilities, and lower volume than a similar valve amp - also your peaks may reach the full 200W (6db hotter than50W) and that will result in harsh notes at least. Id suggest looking for 300W+ for that 100W cab to give it decent power, with enough headroom for the peaks without hitting issues.

Just remember, small wattage and you could run into volume, or harsh tone issues. BIG wattage means clean power, and headroom. Just because you have the power doesnt mean you have to us it - if you dont have it however and need it your going to have issues.
 
Just wanted to chime in and say I just got an ART sla2 and I love it. Run it mono into 2 1x12 cabs and I'm rocking free world. Xlr to the pa and sla into the cab in output 2. Mono is 560 class AB watts! Whoa...
 
Yep - the SLA 2 is a perfectly valid option power wise, and many are happy with it. I used an SLA for 14 months with no issues at all. I progressed to a valve power amp only when I got the chance to A/B the SLA with one (pure chance) and just thought the valve PA was better - it had more life for want of a better word. the search went on, but not from a tonal POV - from a weight one. I have a bad back, and carrying the VHT PA and AFX on a proper rack (ie not plastic) was too much for me. Had the Atomic been available at the time I moved on I may have given that a try (its 3KG lighter than the VHT), but it wasnt. I got wind of the Matrix and contacted them for price (the XT at the time).

Matrix had no idea of the guitar market, and were happy for me to have one to trial. i gave feedback (similar to most SS amps in truth) about what we, as guitarists want - particularly in the modelling world - from connections, to feel, to harmic bloom, etc etc. Andy (the designer) took a lot of time to clarify what I was trying to say - along with speaking to 3 other forum members who by this time had XTs to trial (2 of which I pointed them to as I knew them, what they used the AFX for, in what environment, and how professional they were). This led to the development of the GT800fx and the rest is history. i also pointed them in Tone Merchants direction saying they MAY be open to taking them on as there into top end stuff (which I considered the Matrix to be in the SS world for guitars), and that happened as well.

I guess that what sets matrix apart from other products/companies. Others like the Art, QSC, Carvin and others are designed for different markets (mostly PA, but sometimes studio monitor use). While there are some that are designed for guitarists in mind - notably the old Marshal Valvestates and Rocktrons Velocity series - Matrix too a high quality product (just check out their full blown PA line - of which the XT800 is one, its use and the feedback those amps have) - the designed himself talked to real guitarists to understand what they wanted that was different - tuned the amp to their needs and released it to - what is lets face it - a niche market with relative low potential volumes of sales, and then stand by that product. Andys always open to ideas to tweek/tune his amps as well. If its possible without major revision he will do so for future builds. I think in todays world that level of commitment to their products and customers is rare - and fits with Fractal's and G66's own ethos.

Still, I digress. No problem with the ART as its cheaper and more than powerful enough for AFX use. I do feel its not as open sounding, doesnt have quite the harmonic bloom and is a little harsher than the Matrix - but that could be taste, and it may be less noticeable to others - or others may not be willing to pay the extra money (the matirx being what - twice the price in the US? its only about 20% more in the UK) for the slight improvements they see. Each to their own in the end.
 
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ari said:
Just wanted to chime in and say I just got an ART sla2 and I love it. Run it mono into 2 1x12 cabs and I'm rocking free world. Xlr to the pa and sla into the cab in output 2. Mono is 560 class AB watts! Whoa...
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now go grab a pair of good FR cabs and run those at you feet in stereo and like it even more.
 
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