Can't get good recording tones, what am I doing wrong?

[Steveche]

I'm fairly new to the Axe-Fx II scene, as I purchased my first unit (Axe-Fx II XL) in January 2015. For live setup, the Axe + MFC101 have been a blessing, I've been running the Axe II XL --> Matrix GT1000 power amp --> Orange 4x12 cab. The tone sounds huge, like my old analog rig (EVH 5150iii), and the simplicity of the digital setup is beautiful.

On to recording:

My first attempt at recording with the Axe-Fx II XL was last night, with my band mate who has his own home studio. He's using a Mac Pro, and I believe he's using Pro Tools 11 or 12, with a Digi 002 rack. We tried 2 setups:

1) Hooking the Axe up to the Digi 002 rack via S/PDIF cables (out from axe to in on Digi002)
2) Taking the Digi 002 rack out of the equation - Hooking up the Axe via usb, and changing the soundcard to the Axe in Pro Tools.

In both scenarios, we recorded a riff, and the outcome sounded the same. The sound we are getting doesn't sound "pro". I've tried my EVH 5150iii 100w preset, which sounds really good live. I've also tried downloading a bunch of presets from the forums here and axe-change, which sound REALLY good, but when I use them, they don't sound nearly the same. The recordings don't sound terrible, but they definitely don't sound like the clips (at all sometimes), and thus don't sound "pro". Am I missing something? Or does everyone do post-processing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as my band mate and I spent hours yesterday trying to achieve the great recorded tones I hear all over these forums.

I have power amp and cabs turned on for recording, using an ESP LTD EC-1000 with EMG 81/85. We are trying to achieve a good metalcore tone - something like Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, All That Remains, August Burns Red, etc.

Thanks!

 

[PRSfreak4]

I have power amp and cabs turned on for recording, using an ESP LTD EC-1000 with EMG 81/85. We are trying to achieve a good metalcore tone - something like Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, All That Remains, August Burns Red, etc.

So switching from your Live Rig to your "Recording Rig", did you rebuild a preset from scratch that is simple like AMP > CAB from I/O? I record my stuff in GarageBand via USB AFX with Output 1 Left and Output 1 Right tracked panned about 40% each way respectively without any issues.

I am more curious of how your preset is configured for recording directly via USB. Or, have you tried Mic'ing your Orange 4x12 cab? Maybe upload the preset (Axe-Edit > Export) for us to take a look at as well.

You'll get there, just getting the basics out of the way sorry if you already did all this... Thanks!

 

[Steveche]

So switching from your Live Rig to your "Recording Rig", did you rebuild a preset from scratch that is simple like AMP > CAB from I/O? I record my stuff in GarageBand via USB AFX with Output 1 Left and Output 1 Right tracked panned about 40% each way respectively without any issues.

I am more curious of how your preset is configured for recording directly via USB. Or, have you tried Mic'ing your Orange 4x12 cab? Maybe upload the preset (Axe-Edit > Export) for us to take a look at as well.

You'll get there, just getting the basics out of the way sorry if you already did all this... Thanks!

I didn't build a preset from scratch, but I messed around with it by bypassing effects so that I basically had Input --> Drive (OD808) --> Noise Gate --> Amp (5150iii) --> Cab (some 4x12) --> Output.. and messed around with GEQ. I've also downloaded other users' presets that sounded AMAZING but completely different for me. You're just plugging in via USB? How do you have it setup with Output L and Output R? I tried USB but sounded the same as the S/PDIF route. It's hard to explain the tone, it just doesn't sound "HD", like the "HD" tones I hear everywhere.

I haven't tried mic'ing my Orange 4x12 cab, isn't that the point of the Axe, so I don't have to? I can upload my 5150iii preset soon.

Here's a riff we recorded to test the setup. We used a preset called UberRecto for this, which we got from a website called silentundergroundstudio.com, the preset released on Feb 25th (if you want to compare). Not sure if they've done any post-processing though --> http://www.silentundergroundstudio.com/preset-a-day

Test clip - Total of 4 tracks, 2 main, 2 harmony. File outputted with a 3db limiter boost for some extra volume:

Also, forgot to mention that we are recording at 24 bit - 48 khz. Sorry for my noobness, I personally don't have much experience with recording in general.

Edit: I've also noticed, while downloading some presets online, that some of them clip the Ouput 1 a lot, so I have to turn the volume down quite a bit on the Amp block. Why on earth are they soo loud, and I assume not clipping for them?

 

[Brownmatthall]

What you need to realize is that recorded source tones (especially distorted guitars), are going to sound very far off from a finished track. Even more so without drums or bass to add the context of a mix.

As far as the volume difference between some presets, that can be attributed to the user's pickup selection. I'm assuming the ones you have are fairly high output?

 

[jlynnb1]

i mean, as a stand alone tone, i don't think that sounds too bad. like others have said, tones in a mix sound wayyyyy different than tones by themselves. listen to any stems of heavy guitars and you'll think most sound awful by themselves.

 

[Steveche]

What you need to realize is that recorded source tones (especially distorted guitars), are going to sound very far off from a finished track. Even more so without drums or bass to add the context of a mix.

As far as the volume difference between some presets, that can be attributed to the user's pickup selection. I'm assuming the ones you have are fairly high output?

Yeah that's true, didn't think about the pickups. EMGs are high output yeah. So, you're saying almost everything requires a bunch of post processing to shape the tone? I could have sworn I've heard some brilliant sounding tones online that people claim to have done no post-processing, just raw recordings.

i mean, as a stand alone tone, i don't think that sounds too bad. like others have said, tones in a mix sound wayyyyy different than tones by themselves. listen to any stems of heavy guitars and you'll think most sound awful by themselves.

I agree, it doesn't sound bad, but I just feel it's missing that high-definition quality. If you check out that UberRecto preset (Feb 25th - Day 22) on the silentundergroundstudio site, it sounds pretty awesome as a stand alone metal tone. Is that just a bunch of post processing to "finish" the track?

Also, how many tracks per guitar do people tend to record. 2? I want that "huge" sounding distortion

A little off topic, but how do you record dry tracks at the same time? Is there a tutorial somewhere?

I agree, in a mix things will sound different. Haven't had the chance to test that yet. Thanks guys!

 

[Stratman68]

You are correct, you do "not" need a lot of post processing-unless this only applies to hi gain tones like you posted. But I really doubt that..... Because any type of rock, Blues, R&B, Jazz, country, etc records just like it sounds thru my studio monitors, or better actually.
I guess if your talking about layering the guitar tracks a bunch of times like done on many hi gain\metal type tones.
Still, I mean classic rock has tons of bass on the rhythm but records fine-so I hope you get some more hi gain folks to chime in and help you.... Besides just layering of course.

Mikko IR creator(alias Clark Kent-) posts clips that he just jams on and they sound stellar w/o any post processing. Maybe he'll post here.

Clip does not sound bad to me either BTW.

 

[Stratman68]

[QUOTE="Steveche, post: 1274220, member:

A little off topic, but how do you record dry tracks at the same time? Is there a tutorial somewhere?
Thanks guys![/QUOTE]

Just use output 2 for dry tracks-easiest way I think. Of course that's an analog out. I use analog outs for all recordings btw. I know all about the extra\conversion\whatever, but I judge it all by the outcome----not a definition in a manual or blog. Just MO of course

 

[PRSfreak4]

I haven't tried mic'ing my Orange 4x12 cab, isn't that the point of the Axe, so I don't have to? I can upload my 5150iii preset soon.
Edit: I've also noticed, while downloading some presets online, that some of them clip the Ouput 1 a lot, so I have to turn the volume down quite a bit on the Amp block. Why on earth are they soo loud, and I assume not clipping for them?

No worries, just thought I would ask the question and yes, that is why you want to record over AFX USB. When I set up the tracks, I have one set for Track 1 (Output 1 Left) and Track 2 (Output 1 Right) in GarageBand, that's all I was indicating. We can take a look at your preset and see what would work to help.

As for downloading presets, I take the approach that they are more of a guide for your own preset building process instead of a definitive preset for your to eternally keep. Take heed that if the presets were built with previous firmwares, some of the amp/drive models could have significant changes that aren't reflected in your current firmware accurately (Quantum 1.02 being the latest). What I mean is that especially with the Drive blocks, the levels/gain/tone knobs could be completely off in the most current release because of the improvements made in the firmware builds.

Check out Misha's tutorial on double tracking you might find interesting:

 

[Brownmatthall]

Yeah that's true, didn't think about the pickups. EMGs are high output yeah. So, you're saying almost everything requires a bunch of post processing to shape the tone? I could have sworn I've heard some brilliant sounding tones online that people claim to have done no post-processing, just raw recordings.



I agree, it doesn't sound bad, but I just feel it's missing that high-definition quality. If you check out that UberRecto preset (Feb 25th - Day 22) on the silentundergroundstudio site, it sounds pretty awesome as a stand alone metal tone. Is that just a bunch of post processing to "finish" the track?

Also, how many tracks per guitar do people tend to record. 2? I want that "huge" sounding distortion

A little off topic, but how do you record dry tracks at the same time? Is there a tutorial somewhere?

I agree, in a mix things will sound different. Haven't had the chance to test that yet. Thanks guys!

The amount of post processing required is directly gonna relate to how good the source tone coming in is (which is why we use the axe ). But one of the best ways to improve that tone is using the right IR. I see that live you're using a real cab so you might not be used to hearing your patch through a virtual cab, but some of the cab packs made my ML soundlab and OH are miles ahead of most of the factory stuff so try that!

 

[kisslorand]

Too much distorsion, cut below 80Hz and above 8-10k. So back off your gain and make the low and high cuts than try it in a mix. The core sound it is there, sounds good to me. Quad tracking sounds huge but you loose definition so it is not suited for fast shredding. Better use the quad tracking only for choruses. Even thou try not to play exactly the same thing 4 times, divide your theme in 2 by 2.

 

[JCBitB]

It's always been crucial to start a patch from scratch for me. I'm dialing in healthy amounts of "fizz" and stuff for a live patch for intelligibility and clarity and making decisions based on application, so trying to reverse engineer that after the fact usually gets me an "overcooked" patch.

Also, best advice I ever got is use less gain than you think it should have. I would take it to the absolute bare minimum gain I think I can use, and then cut back one more small notch. Once you've double tracked or quad tracked, you won't be missing it, and you'll probably enjoy the extra punch and clarity. Seems like sizzle always gets added back in when you "glue in" the guitars to the rest of the mix

 

[sopachrga]

I'd stick with just two tracks. But pan them hard left and right.
The tone sounds pretty close, I'd think that you should be able to get it there with that.

 

[willbartlett]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the input. I'm the guy who has the little home studio that Steve was talking about.
(Recording on a Mac Pro with OS X 10.10.5 with Pro Tools 12 running the very old Digi 002 Rack. There was absolutely no difference between going USB in to record from the Axe or using S/PDIF through the Digi 002. As Steve mentioned, in our recording there's 4 tracks total, 2 lead, 2 Harmony with a small boost in volume using a limiter. Recorded at 24bit 48 kHz. The preset was not altered at all, except for the master volume which was brought down a few db because it was peaking when we first applied the preset.)

For a quick compare, their actual recording sounds like this, which is awesome sounding:


But when we use their preset, our recording sounds like this:


I really don't get it. There's no drums or vocals in their track, it's just pure amazing sounding punchy guitar tone.

But in ours, using literally the preset they provided, our track has a decent tone, but it sounds way less punchy and awesome. Their recording is just so clean and perfect!

Sorry for being repetitive, I realize Steve asked similar stuff and provided similar info.

What are we doing wrong!!

Thanks

 

[kisslorand]

Different guitar, different pickups, different strings, different playing style. Adapt the preset to your input.

 

[sickindian]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the input. I'm the guy who has the little home studio that Steve was talking about.
(Recording on a Mac Pro with OS X 10.10.5 with Pro Tools 12 running the very old Digi 002 Rack. There was absolutely no difference between going USB in to record from the Axe or using S/PDIF through the Digi 002. As Steve mentioned, in our recording there's 4 tracks total, 2 lead, 2 Harmony with a small boost in volume using a limiter. Recorded at 24bit 48 kHz. The preset was not altered at all, except for the master volume which was brought down a few db because it was peaking when we first applied the preset.)

For a quick compare, their actual recording sounds like this, which is awesome sounding:


But when we use their preset, our recording sounds like this:


I really don't get it. There's no drums or vocals in their track, it's just pure amazing sounding punchy guitar tone.

But in ours, using literally the preset they provided, our track has a decent tone, but it sounds way less punchy and awesome. Their recording is just so clean and perfect!

Sorry for being repetitive, I realize Steve asked similar stuff and provided similar info.

What are we doing wrong!!

Thanks

My quick reply is going to be about muffled tone you've got where Silent has more opened sound but I do get what you're saying I was struggling the same with creating good recording tones.

 

[Pllm]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the input. I'm the guy who has the little home studio that Steve was talking about.
(Recording on a Mac Pro with OS X 10.10.5 with Pro Tools 12 running the very old Digi 002 Rack. There was absolutely no difference between going USB in to record from the Axe or using S/PDIF through the Digi 002. As Steve mentioned, in our recording there's 4 tracks total, 2 lead, 2 Harmony with a small boost in volume using a limiter. Recorded at 24bit 48 kHz. The preset was not altered at all, except for the master volume which was brought down a few db because it was peaking when we first applied the preset.)

For a quick compare, their actual recording sounds like this, which is awesome sounding:


But when we use their preset, our recording sounds like this:


I really don't get it. There's no drums or vocals in their track, it's just pure amazing sounding punchy guitar tone.

But in ours, using literally the preset they provided, our track has a decent tone, but it sounds way less punchy and awesome. Their recording is just so clean and perfect!

Sorry for being repetitive, I realize Steve asked similar stuff and provided similar info.

What are we doing wrong!!

Thanks

First, are recording mono or stereo? If you have stuff like enhancer in your preset but record mono, you may have big difference.
Second, when downloading a preset from Internet, you will have different sound compared to your source (different guitar, pickup, fingers, etc.). My advise would be to use reamping or just the looper to create a preset from scratch with the sound you want. When you'll have a good track(s), you'll have to work on it to make sure that it's ok in the mix. You may also want to not have the reverb in the preset but in your software instead.

No reason you can't get a good tone.

 

[willbartlett]

My quick reply is going to be about muffled tone you've got where Silent has more opened sound but I do get what you're saying I was struggling the same with creating good recording tones.

Yea, exactly. There's definitely a muffled/muddy sound in our recording.

Anyone have any good links or info about Andy Sneap's parallel compression technique for mixing guitars? I heard it can help shape the guitar to create a full tone.

We recorded to a mono track using the left side from the axe as our input on the track in Pro Tools. We can try all of the suggestions on this page and see what we get.

Thanks!

 

[Brownmatthall]

Yea, exactly. There's definitely a muffled/muddy sound in our recording.

Anyone have any good links or info about Andy Sneap's parallel compression technique for mixing guitars? I heard it can help shape the guitar to create a full tone.

We recorded to a mono track using the left side from the axe as our input on the track in Pro Tools. We can try all of the suggestions on this page and see what we get.

Thanks!

Getting into something like parallel compression on guitars is putting the cart before the horse. I seriously think you should try out some 3rd party IRs and see where that puts you

 

[Steveche]

Getting into something like parallel compression on guitars is putting the cart before the horse. I seriously think you should try out some 3rd party IRs and see where that puts you

3rd party IRs are purchased, or do people post them? Sorry again for my noobness, I've always used my Orange 4x12 live.