Calling All Non-FRFR Guitar Cab Users

axel

axel

Power User
Hey, just wanted to get some discussion going with those using guitar cabs, rather than FRFR. I'm a new Axe owner, and am trying to get some tips on good tone going straight to a power amp and into 4x12 guitar cabs (without the cab simulation of course). So far, I'm finding that, after dialing in the amp block as close as possible, I'm still having to add some EQ out back (I'm using the Parametric) to get a full sound through my 4x12 cabs. Just curious what others are doing in this situation.
 
I am using the standard with a SS Power amp and Genz-Benz G-Flex 212.
I am using the PEQ at the end of my chain as well. Do you guys think the speaker resonate freq parameter in the amp block will help dial things in? I have played around with it a bit but still havent found that key position.
I am gonna research my cab and see if i can find out what the res freq is and see if this helps or not. If the results are good i will let you guys know. I have high hopes for this thread.
 
Only had my Axe Fx a week, and I'm already convinced that the parametric eq is going to be at the end of all my preset blocks. In an attempt to cop the tone of my Marshall JVM, I've found that using the parametric to boost the 900 hz range around 10 db (Q of .2) was the only way I could get close. I've also found lower settings of the Thump and Damp parameters and higher settings of the Depth parameter gives me the smoothest "Marshall Like" overdrive. After hours of tweaking today, I'm a lot closer. As far as the resonance parameter, I didn't find that it made a huge difference, other than how much "boominess" was present. I finally settled on 100hz for the setting.
 
Also let's say you are in the clean channell, that's where you gonna get the true sound of any other amp that you are trying, i.e , Recto, Energyball, etc... , because if you are in the high gain channell like my Herbert, the gain and the characteristics of the herbert is way too powerfull to allow you to hear the true sound of the any other amp that you after , please correct me if I am wrong, isn't this the case ? you should be in the clean channell to get an awesome gain sound. and then for a really nice crystal clear beautiful tone, just add the other effects. correct ?
 
I think (though I may be wrong) hes refering to putting the axe before the amp. You d have to go into a clean channel to use amp amp sims. If your effectivly putting a drive pedal in front of a gained amp channel. Even in the clean channel the axes tone will be coloured tremendously.

What he should be doing with a real amp is using a 4 cable method, with only some FX before the amp (like wah, comp etc) and leaving Amp sims and mod FX in the loop. That way he can use his amps gain channel with axe paches containing no amp sim - and bypassing the amps pre section with axe patches that do have amp sims for other flavours.

If ive read the post wrong - apologies.
 
That sounds correct. What I would really like to see in this post is discusssion amongst users, not using FRFR or cab sims, regarding the following:

1. Targeted tone (amp or song)
2. Equipment being used
3. Axe Fx Amp being used
4. Axe Fx EQ settings being used
5. Sharing of presets?

Generall speaking, tips and tricks to get a real tube amp tone whilst driving guitar speaker cabs.

Here's a start:

Target: Marshall JVM OD2 channel
Equipment: Axe FX > 2 channel (50 watts per side) tube amp (set clean) > 2 Marshall 1960A cabs
Amp Sim: Plexi 1
EQ: Post distortion parametric boost (913hz, .2Q, +10db)
Preset: Still working on preset...

Suggestions on how to better coordinate this are welcome!
 
paulmapp8306 said:
I think (though I may be wrong) hes refering to putting the axe before the amp. You d have to go into a clean channel to use amp amp sims. If your effectivly putting a drive pedal in front of a gained amp channel. Even in the clean channel the axes tone will be coloured tremendously.

What he should be doing with a real amp is using a 4 cable method, with only some FX before the amp (like wah, comp etc) and leaving Amp sims and mod FX in the loop. That way he can use his amps gain channel with axe paches containing no amp sim - and bypassing the amps pre section with axe patches that do have amp sims for other flavours.

If ive read the post wrong - apologies.
Click to expand...


Well that makes more sense. But if i had a Herbert i would just use the axe for fx.

I have been a Roadking and Mark IV owner for years and am very used to that sound. No problems getting that tone on my studio monitors but i cant seem to get there with my live rig. :( So im thinking that im not gonna get the tone im after till i get a tube poweramp...am i wrong?
 
That's the type of issues I'm talking about, getting "the" tube amp sound pushing "real" guitar cabs. I'm using a 2 channel tube amp with 6L6 power tubes, and I'm having trouble getting the fullness out of Axe Fx/Tube amp combo that I get from the Marshall. Not sure how to describe it, but it's like the higher strings are too clean sounding and have no thickness, like playing a guitar with extra light gage strings. My Boss GT-Pro sounds closer through the same tube amp. Not saying the Axe Fx can't do it, just not sure how to get there. Wonder if anyone is committing taboo by using cab sims with guitar cabs?
 
axel said:
That's the type of issues I'm talking about, getting "the" tube amp sound pushing "real" guitar cabs. I'm using a 2 channel tube amp with 6L6 power tubes, and I'm having trouble getting the fullness out of Axe Fx/Tube amp combo that I get from the Marshall. Not sure how to describe it, but it's like the higher strings are too clean sounding and have no thickness, like playing a guitar with extra light gage strings. My Boss GT-Pro sounds closer through the same tube amp. Not saying the Axe Fx can't do it, just not sure how to get there. Wonder if anyone is committing taboo by using cab sims with guitar cabs?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, are you running Guitar -> AxeFX -> Front Panel Input of your amp? If so it probably does sound pretty bad. You either need to use the 4-cable method if you want to use your amp's preamp and the AxeFx's effects or just run guitar -> AxeFx -> Effects Return on your amp to use the AxeFx for everything but cab sims.
 
marshall2553 said:
axel said:
That's the type of issues I'm talking about, getting "the" tube amp sound pushing "real" guitar cabs. I'm using a 2 channel tube amp with 6L6 power tubes, and I'm having trouble getting the fullness out of Axe Fx/Tube amp combo that I get from the Marshall. Not sure how to describe it, but it's like the higher strings are too clean sounding and have no thickness, like playing a guitar with extra light gage strings. My Boss GT-Pro sounds closer through the same tube amp. Not saying the Axe Fx can't do it, just not sure how to get there. Wonder if anyone is committing taboo by using cab sims with guitar cabs?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, are you running Guitar -> AxeFX -> Front Panel Input of your amp? If so it probably does sound pretty bad. You either need to use the 4-cable method if you want to use your amp's preamp and the AxeFx's effects or just run guitar -> AxeFx -> Effects Return on your amp to use the AxeFx for everything but cab sims.
Click to expand...

No, not running the Axe Fx into a "Guitar" amp. I'm using an all tube stereo power amp, with a very low gain input. It's a clean amp with lots of headroom.
 
axel said:
No, not running the Axe Fx into a "Guitar" amp. I'm using an all tube stereo power amp, with a very low gain input. It's a clean amp with lots of headroom.
Click to expand...

Oops, sorry guess I got mixed up after reading chopshop777's post.
 
Kinda reviving this thread because i think it's too important to let fade into obscurity. for now, i am using the following chain:

Les Paul custom lite - Axe-FX - Mesa Boogie 50/50 poweramp - Mesa 2X12 Rectifier cabinet.

I too am having trouble getting a good hi-gain tone. The cleans are killer; but the distortion tones lack depth.

I also have a Mesa Tremoverb head at the studio and the distortions are night and day. The Mesa is so much bigger and more present, it makes the Axe sounds like a compressed toy (and before anyone asks, the power amp and cab sims are off). I am not slamming the Axe, I just don't know what I'm missing or doing wrong. So far, I haven't tried using any P or GEQ's. So, I guess that'd be the next step.

A buddy of mine is giving me an old Crest CA-6 to screw around with. I'll try that through some PA speakers to see if that'll get me closer to what I want.

The 50/50 is verrry old. I wonder if retubing it might improve things. Any opinions?
 
set theorist said:
Kinda reviving this thread because i think it's too important to let fade into obscurity. for now, i am using the following chain:

Les Paul custom lite - Axe-FX - Mesa Boogie 50/50 poweramp - Mesa 2X12 Rectifier cabinet.

I too am having trouble getting a good hi-gain tone. The cleans are killer; but the distortion tones lack depth.

I also have a Mesa Tremoverb head at the studio and the distortions are night and day. The Mesa is so much bigger and more present, it makes the Axe sounds like a compressed toy (and before anyone asks, the power amp and cab sims are off). I am not slamming the Axe, I just don't know what I'm missing or doing wrong. So far, I haven't tried using any P or GEQ's. So, I guess that'd be the next step.

A buddy of mine is giving me an old Crest CA-6 to screw around with. I'll try that through some PA speakers to see if that'll get me closer to what I want.

The 50/50 is verrry old. I wonder if retubing it might improve things. Any opinions?
Click to expand...

If the tubes in the Mesa are really old I wold re-tube it just because. It may help some but keep in mind just because your running a tube amp doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to run the poweramp sims. This is what's cool about the Axe there is no set way your supposed to run things, it's all about what sounds the best when your done experimenting.
 
I agree, regarding the amp sims. I'm using a 2 channel all tube amp, which is a pretty clean amp, and I'm also using the Axe FX power amp sims as one of my main tools for shaping the overdrive sounds. I even turned on the cab sims at one point, just to see how bad it sounded with my 4x12 cabs. Sounded very dark. I still have my Marshall JVM, and I also agree that the Axe FX+Tube Amp sounds much thinner than the all tube Marshall. I'm getting closer, but it's taking alot of creative EQ.
 
I dont get it.

Either my ears are shot, yours are supernatural, or Im just doing something differnt from the off.

Ive never had a problem getting my axe to sound and re-act like a tube amp. My VHT 50ST head went after 6 months with the axe. I emulated it using a hiwatt block, and while there was a slight difference in some upper frequencies - it was so slight 4 out of 5 guitarists I asked couldnt tell the difference. It was just as full and seep - just missing a little shine. When I put it through the VHTs FX loop the shine appeared, so I put it down to my Art SLA-1 - A Tube PA should be fine.

Even now 14 months after getting the Axe, I share my music room with a friend and his Orange Thunderverb. It sounnded way better than my axe - BUT theres no Orange in the Axe - so I started tweeking (using the SLA then the Fryette M Amp blocks). Now its almost identical. the Orange maybe has a little more clarity but its minimal, again using the Art SLA. Its a lot closer than trying to emulate the Orange with a different real amp. Even my friend is getting temptis worth putting up with for thed with the Axe. The slight difference - which doesnt show once a band is behind it - iBright s worth putting up with for the versatility.

I dont use PEQ or GEQ. I used to on the Marshall patches but not any more. I get close using a combo of Sag, Deep, Damp, Bright value, HF and LF Cutoffs, EQ Stack Freq, Cab Res Freq, Warmth and thump (though not so much since 9.0 - just a little on 2 patches) along with standard b/m/t/p controls.

So either Im not very picky, Im missing something, or just hit on the magic parameters through playing. I do admit to tweeking pretty much all advanced parameter - and pretty extremely (full range of values) right at the start of my Axe Odessy to see what they did. Its taken longer to work out how they interact, but its there.

Not knocking anyone whos struggling. Maybe they have more of an ear and I easily satisfied but it does seem strange to me to hear of "thinness" in the Axe.
 
set theorist said:
Kinda reviving this thread because i think it's too important to let fade into obscurity. for now, i am using the following chain:

Les Paul custom lite - Axe-FX - Mesa Boogie 50/50 poweramp - Mesa 2X12 Rectifier cabinet.

I too am having trouble getting a good hi-gain tone. The cleans are killer; but the distortion tones lack depth.

I also have a Mesa Tremoverb head at the studio and the distortions are night and day. The Mesa is so much bigger and more present, it makes the Axe sounds like a compressed toy (and before anyone asks, the power amp and cab sims are off). I am not slamming the Axe, I just don't know what I'm missing or doing wrong. So far, I haven't tried using any P or GEQ's. So, I guess that'd be the next step.

A buddy of mine is giving me an old Crest CA-6 to screw around with. I'll try that through some PA speakers to see if that'll get me closer to what I want.

The 50/50 is verrry old. I wonder if retubing it might improve things. Any opinions?
Click to expand...


Have you tried running the Axe through the FX loop of the Tremoverb? That might let you see if there is a problem with the 50/50's tubes.

Mark
 
Ive now tried 6 different cabs with the axe-fx (marshall 1960a, orange 4x12, rivera 4x12, marshall with g12h-100, marshall with greenbacks). I mean having them at my house for weeks, not playing them in a shop for just 10 mins. Ive used the Art sla-2, Marshall el34 50/50 and Marshall 9200 power amps.

The art-sla2 has irritating high mid frequencies and a general lack of depth on high gain tones. Ive owned my axe-fx for well over a year so I know what I'm doing by now. Ive experimented with the advanced amp parameters and para eq's but I'm just not getting there. Plug into the Marshall 9200 (axe poweramp sims off) and boom, the tone is there. The tube amp is just more 3d sounding every time. And those Marshall power amps aren't even regarded as great tube amps.

I sometimes wonder how much difference a better SS amp would make.... because I'm really not impressed with the art sla-2 for high gain tones. I dial in a soldano slo100 model with controls set at noon (mids on 11 o'clock) and master volume at about 4 (11h00) and it sounds muddy. Its just very "closed" sounding. And my main guitar is on the bright side. I dont expect to nail the slo sound by doing that but sheees..... its so far off its scary. And no im not playing with cabsims "on". I normally dont go past a 1 o'clock gain setting on any ampsim.

The forum veterans are usually quick to say that if you're not happy with your tone then its user error.... not the axe-fx's fault. I wonder how many of them play high gain and actually use real guitar cabs with the axe-fx. Im at the point where I'm considering shelling out for a mesa 2:90 or a VHT2150 or something.

Sorry for the threadjack but any advice would be appreciated.
 
Cron said:
Ive now tried 6 different cabs with the axe-fx (marshall 1960a, orange 4x12, rivera 4x12, marshall with g12h-100, marshall with greenbacks). I mean having them at my house for weeks, not playing them in a shop for just 10 mins. Ive used the Art sla-2, Marshall el34 50/50 and Marshall 9200 power amps.

The art-sla2 has irritating high mid frequencies and a general lack of depth on high gain tones. Ive owned my axe-fx for well over a year so I know what I'm doing by now. Ive experimented with the advanced amp parameters and para eq's but I'm just not getting there. Plug into the Marshall 9200 (axe poweramp sims off) and boom, the tone is there. The tube amp is just more 3d sounding every time. And those Marshall power amps aren't even regarded as great tube amps.

I sometimes wonder how much difference a better SS amp would make.... because I'm really not impressed with the art sla-2 for high gain tones. I dial in a soldano slo100 model with controls set at noon (mids on 11 o'clock) and master volume at about 4 (11h00) and it sounds muddy. Its just very "closed" sounding. And my main guitar is on the bright side. I dont expect to nail the slo sound by doing that but sheees..... its so far off its scary. And no im not playing with cabsims "on". I normally dont go past a 1 o'clock gain setting on any ampsim.

The forum veterans are usually quick to say that if you're not happy with your tone then its user error.... not the axe-fx's fault. I wonder how many of them play high gain and actually use real guitar cabs with the axe-fx. Im at the point where I'm considering shelling out for a mesa 2:90 or a VHT2150 or something.

Sorry for the threadjack but any advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Fellow forum member Mark Day (member name: Samhill) uses the ART SLA-2 and a guitar cab and he gets killer high gain tones. Search for some of his posts here and there are links to tons of youtube videos he has done. This man has the high gain sounds nailed!
 
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