Cabs - hi & low cuts?

[Lee Servis]

Hello, I'm just wondering how 'important' it is to do hi and lo cuts to the factory cabs? I'd read in various threads that some users do use hi and lo cuts... so I followed suit because it made sense. I had only been playing at bedroom level and they sounded fine at home, but when I recently played at gig volume (at a rehearsal studio) the presets I'd made and used hi cuts (back to about 9000) and lo cuts (up to about 80) they sounded quite thin and 'trebly' compared to the factory presets I also used during the same rehearsal session. In comparison, the factory cabs had lo cuts of 20 and hi 'cuts' of 20,000.

I appreciate as guitarists we'll all have differing wants and needs when it comes to our preferred tones, but the difference was SO noticeable. I may have not helped the situation by reducing the bass and upping the trebles and mids within the (various Marshall) amp blocks I used - so I will be having a look at my amp eq settings.

So, I'm just wondering if there is a general steer/ rule of thumb - again I appreciate people's settings will differ depending on the sound/ tone they're trying to achieve - when it comes to hi/ lo cutting cabs ? I've just updated my FM3 (FW 8) and FM9 (FW7) and when I look at the cabs in the factory presets, the lo cuts seem to be 20 and the hi cuts are 20,000.

Again, a cause for the 'thin' and 'trebly' sound of my own presets could have been caused by the way I eq'd the amp: reducing the bass a bit (I use manly Marshalls and have read some folks ease off the bass - back to 3 or - and upping the mids and trebles to 6 or 7).

As always, I thank you for taking the time to even read this... let alone offer some sound advice - which the very knowledgeable folks on this forum always seem happy to do so generously.

 

[jeffgoobs]

I think doing this as a practice by default on a device which spawns hours of discussions about how to get an ideal FRFR setup is slightly peculiar (but then I'm still only a couple of months in with my FM3, so I might just not understand yet.) In other words, why would one take such care to get a full range (sometimes stereo) amplification system, only to truncate the frequency range to be what a normal guitar cabinet would be anyway? Why not just run the device into a guitar cabinet which has that frequency range to begin with? (These are rhetorical questions, but ones I've pondered.) I've done it with a couple of presets, but in those cases, I was fixing specific symptoms from within said presets, not just preemptively setting it as such.

 

[Rumbletone]

I do use cuts for electric guitar tones (but not for everything - for example, when running synths and acoustic instruments through the FM3).

In my ideal world FoH would do the cuts appropriate for the FoH mix, and the dedicated monitor engineer would make cuts for wedges and IEMs, and my tech would be monitoring the same monitor mix I’m getting and be able to request changes mid-set. But in the real world I never have a tech, rarely have a dedicated monitors engineer, and efficacy of FoH varies wildly - and I’ve found that doing the cuts is a net advantage.

BUT the first question is what’s appropriate for the mix - sure the factory presets sound huge and ballsy, but that’s not always what serves the music - so if you want guitar sounds flapping at 25hz and hissing at +6k don’t do the cuts.

 

[mr_fender]

It depends on the mix you're trying to fit into. If you're just jamming alone, there's no need to cut anything unless you think it sounds better.

If you're in an instrumental 3 piece, you're going to have a whole lot more sonic real estate to play with compared to a bigger band with multiple guitars, keys, vocals, horns, etc. It can even change on a song by song basis depending on the instrumentation.

 

[Joshua_L]

If you don’t know the best is to rent a rehearsal room and try to tweak at high volume.

It’s not the same thing at all. So you have to practice that to manage to dial those tones at home. You need to train your ears.

But as a general rule, the guitar sits in the mid frequencies. So If you cut at 80 and feels it’s thin, you need to work on the low mids to gain some body to the tone. Your can start to high cut at 7k-8k reduce some highs and then go even lower until it soifs great.

Irs that work great at home sometimes doesn’t work well in love situations.

There’s a learning curve but it’s a really great thing to learn.

 

[Paul Bradshaw]

it's a great question, the hi and low cut is a general sort of EQ move that is also done a lot when EQing guitars for a mix , and a lot depends as well what other instruments are there, and what the general mix actually is

a low cut of 60-80hz won't necessarily make your guitar sound thin, to the same extent that a hi-cut of 10khz will make the guitar sound like a blanket is over the cab/tone

if you can dial in a preset in a real world setup, or pretty loud PA, that's great, but if you have a decent setup at home or maybe headphones which you can compare how a good sounding preset sounds to one of your own that's a good place to start

in essence it's a balancing act, what sounds good in isolation might be a bit too bass heavy or too bright in a band mix

--
that being said you find that your tone is sounding too thin + trebly, i'd first look at the amp EQ ,use your ears, don't be afraid of putting presence at 0/lowering treble and i think as Joshua said above, you're most likely missing low mids to help beef up the tone,
it's possible also that adding more mids on the amp/voicing is increasing that harsher sound, which might be accentuating that thin/trebly sound

what i find quite handy for quick tweaks is the Cab block/preamp page, if you select a preamp (modern, transformer etc..) you can use the 3 band EQ to easily dial in a tone without messing with the amp EQ , you can bump up the mids here for example and see how that affects your tone

if you want to post a preset (that you find thin+trebly), happy to take a look and see how it sounds at this end and offer some more specific tweaks/advice

 

[Lee Servis]

Thank you one and all. Your words, thoughts, suggestions and advice are all very helpful and informative. Much appreciated

 

[Joshua_L]

it's a great question, the hi and low cut is a general sort of EQ move that is also done a lot when EQing guitars for a mix , and a lot depends as well what other instruments are there, and what the general mix actually is

a low cut of 60-80hz won't necessarily make your guitar sound thin, to the same extent that a hi-cut of 10khz will make the guitar sound like a blanket is over the cab/tone

if you can dial in a preset in a real world setup, or pretty loud PA, that's great, but if you have a decent setup at home or maybe headphones which you can compare how a good sounding preset sounds to one of your own that's a good place to start

in essence it's a balancing act, what sounds good in isolation might be a bit too bass heavy or too bright in a band mix

--
that being said you find that your tone is sounding too thin + trebly, i'd first look at the amp EQ ,use your ears, don't be afraid of putting presence at 0/lowering treble and i think as Joshua said above, you're most likely missing low mids to help beef up the tone,
it's possible also that adding more mids on the amp/voicing is increasing that harsher sound, which might be accentuating that thin/trebly sound

what i find quite handy for quick tweaks is the Cab block/preamp page, if you select a preamp (modern, transformer etc..) you can use the 3 band EQ to easily dial in a tone without messing with the amp EQ , you can bump up the mids here for example and see how that affects your tone

if you want to post a preset (that you find thin+trebly), happy to take a look and see how it sounds at this end and offer some more specific tweaks/advice

The preamp is a great advice.
And if you don’t have the cpu availability just put a peq after the cab.
I always have one to correct some disturbing frequencies. Generally to cut a little around 3k and to have a better control than just cuts.

What you call thin and trebly might be the famous 3k spikes

 

[Lee Servis]

Thanks Joshua… all very helpful, though I guess I realise more and more how little about cuts/ frequencies. For example, I hear people referring to “2K”… and you ref the “3K spike”and I wouldn’t really have a clue what those numbers refer to/ equate to .

 

[shredhead]

You're probably looking into the wrong place in factory presets. Check the "preamp" page of a cab block, there are cuts in factory presets.

 

[camilovelandiamusic]

Hello, I'm just wondering how 'important' it is to do hi and lo cuts to the factory cabs? I'd read in various threads that some users do use hi and lo cuts... so I followed suit because it made sense. I had only been playing at bedroom level and they sounded fine at home, but when I recently played at gig volume (at a rehearsal studio) the presets I'd made and used hi cuts (back to about 9000) and lo cuts (up to about 80) they sounded quite thin and 'trebly' compared to the factory presets I also used during the same rehearsal session. In comparison, the factory cabs had lo cuts of 20 and hi 'cuts' of 20,000.

I appreciate as guitarists we'll all have differing wants and needs when it comes to our preferred tones, but the difference was SO noticeable. I may have not helped the situation by reducing the bass and upping the trebles and mids within the (various Marshall) amp blocks I used - so I will be having a look at my amp eq settings.

So, I'm just wondering if there is a general steer/ rule of thumb - again I appreciate people's settings will differ depending on the sound/ tone they're trying to achieve - when it comes to hi/ lo cutting cabs ? I've just updated my FM3 (FW 8) and FM9 (FW7) and when I look at the cabs in the factory presets, the lo cuts seem to be 20 and the hi cuts are 20,000.

Again, a cause for the 'thin' and 'trebly' sound of my own presets could have been caused by the way I eq'd the amp: reducing the bass a bit (I use manly Marshalls and have read some folks ease off the bass - back to 3 or - and upping the mids and trebles to 6 or 7).

As always, I thank you for taking the time to even read this... let alone offer some sound advice - which the very knowledgeable folks on this forum always seem happy to do so generously.

Hey Lee. In my opinion/experience, the "body" of the electric guitar sound is more in the 100hz-250hz range. I have two theories for your situation. One could be that regardless of the low-cut at 80hz you did, maybe the factory presets had IR's that had a bigger bump in that 100hz-250hz and it felt like more body. Another theory is that maybe the factory presets you compared to were just louder. Louder always feels fuller. Experiment with increasing the proximity parameter if you want more of that body. The stuff below 80hz just real subby thump, and I never ever found it useful in any guitar sound.

 

[shredhead]

Well, he said that he always played at bedroom level, which means he dialed his presets for bedroom level, and as the result - they sound trebly and thin (we tend to dial more top end at low volume level). It has nothing to do with cuts.

 

[Lee Servis]

Many thanks - I love the way the Fractal community folks are always so willing to help modeller cavemen such as myself… it really is appreciated.
I think what I need to do is get back in the rehearsal studio on my own and start playing at proper/ gig volume. The factory presets I played in their previously sounded so much better/ bigger/ fuller than the ones I’d dialled in myself. Having said that, I was only in the studio with another guitarist and not a full band. I think the factory presets will give me the best starting point.
Thanks again to all who’ve jumped in to come to my rescue

 

[wesleyamltd]

I find the best place to start with any preset is with the IR or in the case of Fractal, Dyna-cab.

Don’t touch anything on the amp.

Make initial adjustments to the chosen IR/Cab.

In general, the frequency's on guitar are mostly useless above 12k and below 80hz. (fighting words, haha)

However, the easiest way to make a broad adjustment to your tone would be to use a low pass filter and cut to what sounds best.

Rely on your ears not your eyes or some number.

Of course as with any sonic adjustment, YMMV based on the system used to monitor that adjustment.

Never forget, pothings nerfict and have fun!

 

[sprint]

why would one take such care to get a full range (sometimes stereo) amplification system, only to truncate the frequency range to be what a normal guitar cabinet would be anyway?

My take: Normal guitar cabs have a fixed frequency profile which varies from one normal cab to another (each have their characteristic dips and peaks within a typical 80-10k range). Your FR system can replicate any of those varied profiles, not just 1, and/or, if desired, can reproduce other types of sounds outside of that typical electric guitar cab range.

 

[jeffgoobs]

My take: Normal guitar cabs have a fixed frequency profile which varies from one normal cab to another (each have their characteristic dips and peaks within a typical 80-10k range). Your FR system can replicate any of those varied profiles, not just 1, and/or, if desired, can reproduce other types of sounds outside of that typical electric guitar cab range.

Totally. The question(s) was/were mainly rhetorical; by no means would I actually question how one chooses to contextually EQ his/her signal. The rhetoric was based on the notion that some people take this idea to the extreme and will universally and arbitrarily EQ every patch of theirs with these limitations (as opposed to specifically EQing out offending frequencies when needed.) So it was sort of a tongue-in-cheek "if every patch is set like that by default, why not just get a cab that has those limitations naturally?" Anecdotally, I have a few patches where I have HPFs and/or LPFs set, so I totally get why one would use them.

 

[Goonie]

FWIW, as of lately I have been leaving the cab preamp high cut at 20kHz. I do tame some low end up around 100-120Hz most of the time.
I still utilize "legacy" IR's, mainly 3rd party ones that are of a single sm57 (to replicate a real world live situation). I have yet to have any problems with tone, ear piercing frequencies, etc. I dabble in the Dyna Cabs from time to time.

I am still holding strong to my theory of just because the cab block or your FRFR is "capable" of 20Hz-20kHz, doesn't mean your IR is reproducing those same frequencies. In my mind, it can't. When I do a drastic high cut in the cab preamp, I think that you lose the sizzle on top that a real amp would produce. Too me, the tone is dull and lifeless when cutting below say 12kHz or so. I tame the high end with amp treble and presence.

Ugh, more fighting words.

YMMV

 

[Anand Mahangoe]

FWIW, as of lately I have been leaving the cab preamp high cut at 20kHz. I do tame some low end up around 100-120Hz most of the time.
I still utilize "legacy" IR's, mainly 3rd party ones that are of a single sm57 (to replicate a real world live situation). I have yet to have any problems with tone, ear piercing frequencies, etc. I dabble in the Dyna Cabs from time to time.

I am still holding strong to my theory of just because the cab block or your FRFR is "capable" of 20Hz-20kHz, doesn't mean your IR is reproducing those same frequencies. In my mind, it can't. When I do a drastic high cut in the cab preamp, I think that you lose the sizzle on top that a real amp would produce. Too me, the tone is dull and lifeless when cutting below say 12kHz or so. I tame the high end with amp treble and presence.

Ugh, more fighting words.

YMMV

Yup ! Exacty my way of working...only low-cut 100hz.....the rest with the amp knobs....NO issues with IEM, Studio monitors , FOH and so on....eveyone leaves my EQ flat, and hard L/R panning and done ! I am using York KW M25 Mix 01 IR......

 

[Joshua_L]

Yup ! Exacty my way of working...only low-cut 100hz.....the rest with the amp knobs....NO issues with IEM, Studio monitors , FOH and so on....eveyone leaves my EQ flat, and hard L/R panning and done ! I am using York KW M25 Mix 01 IR......

It really depends on the ir you are using. That can’t be a general rule.

Some irs may contain unwanted high frequencies and some are already tailored and cut perfectly for your tone. You don’t high cut a lot because it’s already cut. For exemple ownhammer provides some full and raw ir that contains a lot more frequencies that the same irs but processed to have a certain ton quality to it.

To know that you just have to run any eq analyser in your daw.

 

[JoKeR III]

Hello, I'm just wondering how 'important' it is to do hi and lo cuts to the factory cabs? I'd read in various threads that some users do use hi and lo cuts... so I followed suit because it made sense. I had only been playing at bedroom level and they sounded fine at home, but when I recently played at gig volume (at a rehearsal studio) the presets I'd made and used hi cuts (back to about 9000) and lo cuts (up to about 80) they sounded quite thin and 'trebly' compared to the factory presets I also used during the same rehearsal session. In comparison, the factory cabs had lo cuts of 20 and hi 'cuts' of 20,000.

I appreciate as guitarists we'll all have differing wants and needs when it comes to our preferred tones, but the difference was SO noticeable. I may have not helped the situation by reducing the bass and upping the trebles and mids within the (various Marshall) amp blocks I used - so I will be having a look at my amp eq settings.

So, I'm just wondering if there is a general steer/ rule of thumb - again I appreciate people's settings will differ depending on the sound/ tone they're trying to achieve - when it comes to hi/ lo cutting cabs ? I've just updated my FM3 (FW 8) and FM9 (FW7) and when I look at the cabs in the factory presets, the lo cuts seem to be 20 and the hi cuts are 20,000.

Again, a cause for the 'thin' and 'trebly' sound of my own presets could have been caused by the way I eq'd the amp: reducing the bass a bit (I use manly Marshalls and have read some folks ease off the bass - back to 3 or - and upping the mids and trebles to 6 or 7).

As always, I thank you for taking the time to even read this... let alone offer some sound advice - which the very knowledgeable folks on this forum always seem happy to do so generously.

I ran into this exact scenario when attempting to go from the AX8 with an amp to FOH direct with just the AX8. Tones sounded great at home, even at moderate volumes but thin and weak in the auditorium.

Long story short, I selected an amp and corresponding cab (AC-20 EF86 Treble with the 1x12 AC-20 DLX MIX IR), left everything at default and the tone instantly sounded better. Took a week or so to 'recalibrate' my ears and it made it easier to dial in tones at home that translate well live.

Over the course of a couple of months, I eventually settled on a Low cut @120 Hz and a Hi cut @9.0 kHz in the Cab block Preamp page.