Block order/ hierarchy...

SteveW

SteveW

Experienced
I never really used a lot of pedals - other than gain/ distortion, delay, compressor...and I never really paid a lot of attention to the signal chain order either.

Today, with the Axe, it's much more critical to me when building patches, to pay close attention to the signal chain hierarchy. So I have some basic questions:

Preamble: I don't use cabs, as I play through a real Mesa 4 x 12, so I don't need cab blocks and have cab sims turned off.

1) Am I correct in assuming that the best place for a compressor block, is at the very beginning of the chain, before the drive block, right after the input noisegate?
2) Where do I put the Delay, Reverb, Enhance, Pitch blocks..after the amp block? And If I add a cab block to use headphones, where then do I put the above mentioned blocks?
3) What are the benefits of running blocks in parallel over series?
4) Is there a general rule of thumb for chain order with all of these effects? I know there are some do's and don'ts, but not sure where they all apply.
 
1: depends what you want to achieve.
2: time effects will sound cleaner and clearer after the amp. modulation effects will usually work best in front of the amp, but there are no rules. for the cab place it after the amp like you do in real life.
3: not reverbing delay repeats, or vise versa.
4: only you can decide this as there are no rules, only what sounds good to you.
Good luck! happy Fractaling!
 
Thanks, can you explain a bit more regarding #3? Does that mean if I'm running things like enhance, reverb and delay, for example, they should be in parallel, like above and below the chain and NOT in series?
 
There are no hard and fast rules, but there are some general guidelines. Generally you put your gain based effects before the amp and the time based effects after. That usually means drives and compressors before the amp and delay and reverb after. Modulation effects can go either before or after, with before the amp preserving the amp's tonal character more, and after sounding more distinct and processed. There are always exceptions though. Ultimately it comes down to personal preference.
 
only if you do not want the effect on top of the other effects. for the most part I run mine in series, but some cant stand the delay tails to be reverberated, or vise versa.
 
One of the big benefits of the Axe is you can put an effect where you think it sounds good, and change it around on the next patch. For example, reverb can sometimes sound better in front of the amp, for the classic external reverb tank sound, but since you probably wouldn't want it like that on all patches, its a piece of cake to place it later in the chain on other patches.

There are literally no real do's or don't.

Pushing an amplifier to the point of distortion was once considered a "don't" remember.

Bottom line is if it sounds good to you, then go with it. Experiment, play with a flanger block before and then after distortion, hear the differences, take note of what sounds to your liking, if it sounds good, it is good
 
Like it's been said above there are no rules for how you place blocks, having said that I try to think of the Axe Fx the same way I would run a real world chain. So for me it looks something like this.

Comp-drive-amp-cab-pitch-volume-delay-reverb. If I run a chorus that is after the amp for me, and if I use a flanger or phaser those go before the amp. Term I like between the amp and cab. But in the end it's all just what you like to hear.
 
SteveW said:
1) Am I correct in assuming that the best place for a compressor block, is at the very beginning of the chain, before the drive block, right after the input noisegate?
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It depends. Most of the time I have them first, but there are a few presets where I have a compressor block after the amp.

SteveW said:
2) Where do I put the Delay, Reverb, Enhance, Pitch blocks..after the amp block? And If I add a cab block to use headphones, where then do I put the above mentioned blocks?
Click to expand...
Traditionally after the amp block, but I remember Steven Wilson saying he likes the sound of running his reverbs and delays in front of his amp... so whatever works.

As for the second part, I have dual purpose presets that have Output 1 (headphones, recording) using a cab block and usually an enhancer block after that. Output 2 gets split off before that and goes to the FX Loop block and sometimes a GEQ block for when I want to use my poweramp and cab. I'll sometimes take the reverb block out of Output 2's path too.

SteveW said:
3) What are the benefits of running blocks in parallel over series?
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Someone earlier said for separating reverbs and delays. But in general for playing with your various dry and wet signals.

SteveW said:
4) Is there a general rule of thumb for chain order with all of these effects? I know there are some do's and don'ts, but not sure where they all apply.
Click to expand...
The truth is that any order can work. For more traditional setups though, I try to remember Robert Keeley's mnemonic device "Which Chain Of Effect Pedals Make Life Easy" which translates as Wah, Compressor, Overdrive, EQ, Pitch, Modulation, Level, Echo.

That Pedal Show has helped me out a lot in understanding how things can be run. This video should help:
 
1) Best is subjective. Up front the compressor is getting the guitar signal before the amp so it'll have the effect of smoothing out the difference in dynamics between the strings going into the preamp (this is how is use it, I like the balance it gives my playing and if i wanted I could even drive the front end with just this block.) After the cab block it'll have the effect of taming your tone as a whole, using it it this way is closer to using it as you would in a studio setting but I do it with my bass tones to help tame errant peaks in the playing.
2) Subjective again, Delays and Reverbs generally sound better after the preamp (placing them after the amp block) but having them upfront isnt wrong per se, just a different flavor (the delay trails up front will be affected by the preamp section and depending on how dirty that is will distort along with your signal, its a cool effect i like to use for certain instances because the stuff you play will kind of slur together). The Pitch block works best first in line where it can get the purest signal in. Ive never used the enhance block. If theres a cab block in the chain it'll only really matter if youre using stereo effects, at which point the cab block should also be stereo or it'll sum the signal.
3) Running effects parallel lets them sit by themselves i.e. delays wont be affected by reverbs etc. this lets them do their own thing and tends to help with clarity. Another benefit to parallel effects is you can have a chain of them in parallel (say, a verb > delay > chorus emulating a strymon kind of deal) and set it so that the first block in the chain mutes out and that way all the effects in the chain mute with is treating it like one pedal
4) General rule of thumb? use your ears :) its all about knowing what sound you want to achieve and if you can do so by taking the road less traveled then so be it.
 
It is as everyone says - there's no accounting for taste. Whatever sounds good to you is good. But, sometimes it helps to consider where the effect you're dealing with would naturally occur. That is, internal or external to the amp or a "special" effect that modifies the signal at the input. For instance, distortion (overdrive/fuzz/etc.) would be considered an unnatural/internal effect because it occurs as a result of operating the instrument or amp outside of nominal specification. If you can't get that effect (or as much as you want) out of the instrument/amp for whatever reason, you put a signal modifier on the amp's input so when the amp makes your signal louder, it sounds like the amp is breaking up.

Reverb or delay would be considered a natural/external effect, because it occurs as a result of the environment rather than the equipment. Any room will have surfaces that sound reflects off of, and the larger the room and/or harder the surfaces, the more of that reverberation you get. If the room gets large enough, you'll actually get echoes with distinct time delays between them on top of the myriad rapid reflections of reverberation. So, to duplicate that when you're not in a room large/hard enough to produce them naturally, you add the effect into your amplification. But, considering that none of that reverberation/echo would happen in real life until the signal had been modified, amplified and sent out into the room, you would sound the most natural in a small room that you wanted to sound big if you could artificially add that effect after the amp. With real amps, that's not really possible - the best you can do is put it between the preamp and power amp - but with an Axe Fx it is. You can run a virtual 412 bottom right into a delay box, then send it out to a transparent (FRFR) amp/speaker to get big. It's a pretty neat trick. It's also one of the reasons why trying to dial in a sound in a rehearsal space doesn't work at the venue. If you create fake reverberation and delay electronically to make a small space sound big, then move to a place that actually is big where those effects occur naturally, the sound just turns to non-sensical mush in your ears.
 
Thanks for all the informative replies - it give me much to think about when creating and modifying patches, as well as some informed insight!
 
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