Best ways to implement smoother scene changes while using both amp blocks simulteanously?

sixtystring

sixtystring

Inspired
edit example stuff added here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/best-ways-to-implement-smoother-scene-changes.185314/post-2287458

Apologies in advance for how vague this may sound.

Recently, my drummer and bassist commented that when I change from a Clean Scene to a Distorted Dirty to Clean Scene there is a noticeable "switchover". Not like a pop, or volume bump, more just like a really distinct "change of tone." I know I could cover it up more using the same effects when switching Scenes, but am not certain that this is the best solution.

Some more info:
  • I'm talking about Scene changes mid song, not Preset changes
  • My Presets are all using a single guitar with both amp blocks active the majority of the time
  • Clean Amps + Cabs are almost always different than my Dirty Amps + Cabs
  • Clean Scenes always have delay/fx wheres my main Distortion Scene does not
  • Preset/Scene changes are triggered via MIDI from a laptop
  • I have my delays and whatnot set to Mute FX In
  • We monitor with IEMs
I'm curious if this sort of thing is only really noticeable due to us using IEMs? In other words, would the natural reverb at a show make it imperceptible to the audience?

I have several ideas on how to "cover it up", but I I guess ultimately I'm just wanting to know how "the pros" (using laptop for MIDI change + IEMs) mitigate this (both in terms of our IEM mix and for Front of House).

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Sounds like a use case for Control Switches. Multiple parameter modifiers across multiple blocks like Level, Feedback, Mix, Input Drive, Boost, Saturation and Bright Switch, as well as block bypass/engage, can be attached to a single switch.
 
Apologies for no preset...my home Axe-FX is offline until I can swap out my power conditioner in my studio rack. I'll try to get that back online ASAP tomorrow and get a preset/sample up. I know the below info won't be as helpful until then, but the presets aren't doing anything crazy.

Dirty Scene
input 1 > split to two amp + cab blocks (mesa JP & friedman HBE basically copied straight from the factory presets) > cab blocks panned hard left and right > output 1

Clean Scene
same basic idea as before, but:
input 1 > comp > vox & fender > hard panned cab blocks (different channels) > stereo time based effects > output 1

How to replicate:
Have a laptop that runs click tracks + midi scene changes on the "1 beat" of each relevant change point. Play along until the MIDI Scene change occurs. At that exact moment, the change over sounds slightly jarring -- just for an instant, but the tone is fine. It's like an abrupt cutover that just doesn't quite feel right. The issue is most apparent when the Scene changes from Clean to Dirty Dirty to Clean.

Basically wondering what all I can do to minimize the problem. I assume these things probably have some impact:
  • hitting the note too early or late on the MIDI switches
  • running dual amps and switching them between drastically different types
  • channel switching the cab block with the scene change
  • clean scene having time based FX; distorted being dry
  • IEMs isolate the sound, so there is no ambient "blending" going on
I am interested in hearing how most people configure their Presets to handle these sorts of changes for a live performance scenario?
 
Last edited:
I don't think this is an Axe issue, or even a technical one.
It's about specifically envisioning your parts, and what you want them to sound like.

Having a varied but coherent palette of tones is Job One in modeler-land.
Amp players didn't have this freedom or responsibility so much, but pedals started down that road.
Listen to Heart Shaped Box for instance.

Re your playing being early or late in relation to scene changes, that's a failure of vision.
If scene changes are done manually instead by a laptop, they'll be more in sync with your playing, and you get a lot of freedom back, even if some other elements of the song are sequenced.
 
Copy your main preset to a new location.

edit the cab block for all scenes to use the same ir’s (i would suggest whatever you use for clean). Whichever side you pick for ir (clean/dirty) you will likely want to change settings on the other side.

Go to the next jam and report back.
 
Budda said:
Guys he says its a “distinct change in tone” - its not the blocks hes using, its that the tones arent cohesive. Run one cab in real life and you can switch 4 heads and sound cohesive.
Click to expand...
DOH! Reading comprehension 101!

sixtystring said:
distinct "change of tone."
Click to expand...
I agree with using the same cabs with both tones at the very least to keep them from sounding too different. Keeping the amps in the same "family" would help quite a bit as well.

If you would post the preset and a song or artist tone for a point of reference, it would allow for more informed suggestions.
 
As others have mentioned, it’s a well-known phenomenon when you radically change your guitar’s sound. It can cause the audience to disconnect and in your case it’s your own band.
 
Budda said:
Guys he says its a “distinct change in tone” - its not the blocks hes using, its that the tones arent cohesive. Run one cab in real life and you can switch 4 heads and sound cohesive.
Click to expand...

Changes in tone happen all the time, so many bands switch between completely different amps/cabs mid song.

You can run 4 heads through the same cab and you won't automatically "sound cohesive", that's not true. You still need to get the settings correct.

Also, I've noticed the OP is changing amp channels, there is a delay between switching amp models. It's small but not seamless. But if you're doing changes on the first beat of the bar (already too late IMO) then you will probably experience strangeness.
 
For the switching part, I don't use paralell amps that much, because of the switching gap. Search the forum for Seamless switching if you are interested. There are ways to get stereo sounds using one amp block at a time
 
Last edited:
Andrew Male said:
Changes in tone happen all the time, so many bands switch between completely different amps/cabs mid song.

You can run 4 heads through the same cab and you won't automatically "sound cohesive", that's not true. You still need to get the settings correct.

Also, I've noticed the OP is changing amp channels, there is a delay between switching amp models. It's small but not seamless. But if you're doing changes on the first beat of the bar (already too late IMO) then you will probably experience strangeness.
Click to expand...
Compared to running 4 heads and 4 cabs it will definitely sound cohesive. Easy enough - choose 4 amps and 4 ir’s at stock settings and try it out. Imo reducing IR’s is step one to fixing the issue. “Correct settings” is and will always be dependent on context - it was implied.

I’ve read more than once where people buy a modeller, stick with one IR and say that a lot of x type of amp (clean/edge of breakup//high gain etc) dont sound super different.
 
sixtystring said:
Apologies in advance for how vague this may sound.

Recently, my drummer and bassist commented that when I change from a Clean Scene to a Distorted Scene there is a noticeable "switchover". Not like a pop, or volume bump, more just like a really distinct "change of tone." I know I could cover it up more using the same effects when switching Scenes, but am not certain that this is the best solution.

Some more info:
  • I'm talking about Scene changes mid song, not Preset changes
  • My Presets are all using a single guitar with both amp blocks active the majority of the time
  • Clean Amps + Cabs are almost always different than my Dirty Amps + Cabs
  • Clean Scenes always have delay/fx wheres my main Distortion Scene does not
  • Preset/Scene changes are triggered via MIDI from a laptop
  • I have my delays and whatnot set to Mute FX In
  • We monitor with IEMs
I'm curious if this sort of thing is only really noticeable due to us using IEMs? In other words, would the natural reverb at a show make it imperceptible to the audience?

I have several ideas on how to "cover it up", but I I guess ultimately I'm just wanting to know how "the pros" (using laptop for MIDI change + IEMs) mitigate this (both in terms of our IEM mix and for Front of House).

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I see you're getting plenty of advice already, but I'll just mention that I always use an expression pedal to smoothly cross fade from clean to dirty using a mixer block. For me, even if you can get past the amp channel switching gap, an instantaneous big change in the amp tone can be jarring. I understand that would be a challenge for you though since you're using a total of 4 amp blocks for your clean and dirty tones. As others have mentioned, depending on why you're using two amp blocks for each, there might be ways to only use one.
 
sixtystring said:
Apologies in advance for how vague this may sound.

Recently, my drummer and bassist commented that when I change from a Clean Scene to a Distorted Scene there is a noticeable "switchover". Not like a pop, or volume bump, more just like a really distinct "change of tone." I know I could cover it up more using the same effects when switching Scenes, but am not certain that this is the best solution.

Some more info:
  • I'm talking about Scene changes mid song, not Preset changes
  • My Presets are all using a single guitar with both amp blocks active the majority of the time
  • Clean Amps + Cabs are almost always different than my Dirty Amps + Cabs
  • Clean Scenes always have delay/fx wheres my main Distortion Scene does not
  • Preset/Scene changes are triggered via MIDI from a laptop
  • I have my delays and whatnot set to Mute FX In
  • We monitor with IEMs
I'm curious if this sort of thing is only really noticeable due to us using IEMs? In other words, would the natural reverb at a show make it imperceptible to the audience?

I have several ideas on how to "cover it up", but I I guess ultimately I'm just wanting to know how "the pros" (using laptop for MIDI change + IEMs) mitigate this (both in terms of our IEM mix and for Front of House).

Thanks!
Click to expand...
What firmware version are you using? The latest versions switch very cleanly, which should help. Then it’s a matter of making sure the scenes/presets are complementary. Jumping from one extreme, say totally clean to heavy fuzz, will always be noticeable and jarring.

But without a preset demonstrating the problem it’s hard for us to imagine what you are experiencing.
 
I just don't buy that you have to make all your tones similar to have it work musically. Thinking of the first two artists off the top of my head, EJ has at least two completely different tones, Andy Timmons too.

What you need is a cool vision of the end result. I'll say it again: This isn't a Fractal problem, or a technical one at all. It's about conjuring up a cool sonic world, with as many colors as you can build connections between.
 
Dave Merrill said:
I just don't buy that you have to make all your tones similar to have it work musically. Thinking of the first two artists off the top of my head, EJ has at least two completely different tones, Andy Timmons too.

What you need is a cool vision of the end result. I'll say it again: This isn't a Fractal problem, or a technical one at all. It's about conjuring up a cool sonic world, with as many colors as you can build connections between.
Click to expand...
If they arent similar, it needs to be intentional with purpose. Thats when you’d go from clean to fuzzy grossness.

Signed,

Went from clean to fuzzy grossness to end sets.
 
Regarding cohesiveness. There are no fast and hard rules about this. It is all about how the amps and cabs are blending. The easy route is to use less changes in the setup. And in my experience there are much easier to stick with one cabinet that pushes the same type of consistent frequency's. That beeing said, you can also change the tonal character alot with just using the fat switch as well, so it all depends of the sound. And what you want to achieve with it.

What I mean by using one cab, is by choosing just one makes one factor less to worry about changing. And then you will not have as many options on tweaking. That beeing said, it's not necessarily the best approach for everything.

I personally use two amps, one for clean and edge of breakup, and the second amp for chrunch and full on metal.

I find I almost always check what the real version of the amp usually is connected to if I want the character of say a combo amp. And some times I use bass cabinets to blend of I want some darkness to it.

I do much of the same for the high gain stuff, but there are far more options for me (as I have played alot of different amps during the years)


The most important thing for me is to listen for the impact. What happens when one sound is played after the other. Do it help the song/type of music etc, or do I need to try something else? The Axe FX is an endless tone machine, and i am certain there is a solution to the problem with coherency. There are a lot of things that seem good on paper, but do it actually work in real life?

I found that i thought I wanted a fender twin (love that amp) but I end up with a fender bassmann instead. Hehe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom