Best ways to implement smoother scene changes while using both amp blocks simulteanously?

I just don't buy that you have to make all your tones similar to have it work musically. Thinking of the first two artists off the top of my head, EJ has at least two completely different tones, Andy Timmons too.

What you need is a cool vision of the end result. I'll say it again: This isn't a Fractal problem, or a technical one at all. It's about conjuring up a cool sonic world, with as many colors as you can build connections between.
And their tones work well together in the context of their songs, there are no ear bending or unpleasingly clashing tones. It sounds like the OP has a far wider separation in the tonal "spectrum" and clash more for other band members to mention it.

It's a matter of finding tones that will have their own identity and fulfill the intended purpose but still sound good together when switching between them.
 
The most important thing here is that there are no rules. But everyone can benefit for some guidelines. Even the pros does that. How many professional artist haven't used Cooper Carter? Just saying 😉
 
Can you provide a recording? Right off the top of my head it sounds like your bandmates are saying that the switch from clean to dirt is not working, like there is a jagged edit or the timing is off, something like that. It would be good to hear what they're hearing.
 
Can you provide a recording? Right off the top of my head it sounds like your bandmates are saying that the switch from clean to dirt is not working, like there is a jagged edit or the timing is off, something like that. It would be good to hear what they're hearing.

“So many possible issues, so little time…”

Two thoughts:

1) as I’m sure you’re already aware, one of the benefits/curses of IEMs (or accurate studio monitors, for that matter) is the highly-detailed “granularity” of what you hear — especially when it’s occurring in the middle of your skull.

2) you say your clean tone usually has delay/fx, whilst your dirty tone does not. Is the switch from clean to dirty abruptly killing your fx? Perhaps some adjustments to spillover and fx bypass settings are in order?
 
appreciate all the responses, havent had a chance to read them yet. finally just got my temporary power setup to get all the example stuff.

attached 19.06 preset and image of what i am talking about. (its actually going from dirty to clean where it is most abrupt, had that backwards). im not using the laptop + midi switching here, just stomping on my fc6 in the example

can't attach mp3s, so there is a sound sample in the zip
 

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As I listen to the MP3 you've got a HUGE difference in apparent volume levels when going from dirt to clean – not in itself bad if it suits your purposes, but that change in my IEMs would snap my head around, too. Maybe some work on relative volume levels would help. My "studio engineer" self would probably seek what someone already posted about: a slower transition from one to the next using a MIX block (possibly triggering a modifier envelope via MIDI?) to make what would otherwise be an expression pedal "mix move" from one scene to the next.
 
appreciate all the responses, havent had a chance to read them yet. finally just got my temporary power setup to get all the example stuff.

attached 19.06 preset and image of what i am talking about. (its actually going from dirty to clean where it is most abrupt, had that backwards). im not using the laptop + midi switching here, just stomping on my fc6 in the example

can't attach mp3s, so there is a sound sample in the zip
I pulled your mp3 into Wavelab, and there is a definite short bit of silence when changing from dirt to clean, but NOT the other way around. And as touch33 said, there is quite a difference in volume. I'm going to try messing around with your preset and see what happens. Thanks for posting this, it makes it much easier to attempt to diagnose.
 
I think this can be solved with a seamless switching technique. Thank you for posting the example. Much easier to relate to the issue!
 
Based on the screenshot, re-listening to my mp3, and evaluating the comments...it seems like the it's probably the Scene Gap that is causing the issue. To me it sounds/looks like the sound completely cuts for a slight moment vs. it being because of the tone change.

I will definitely look into the seamless switching threads...I will say that my distortion tone uses both amp blocks because I find that the Friedman/Mesa combo give me a tone I haven't been able to replicate well without both amps.

I'm curious as to why this happens going from Dirty to Clean, but not the other way around?

What firmware version are you using? The latest versions switch very cleanly, which should help. Then it’s a matter of making sure the scenes/presets are complementary. Jumping from one extreme, say totally clean to heavy fuzz, will always be noticeable and jarring.

But without a preset demonstrating the problem it’s hard for us to imagine what you are experiencing.

I'm on 19.06...

I noticed in the release notes for 20.00 there is the following:

New “Block Mixer” algorithm results in faster/quieter scene and channel changes. This new algorithm allows placing Amp blocks in series without the concomitant sound bursts that would normally occur when switching scenes.

And 20.01 has this:

Fixed switching channels on bypassed blocks can cause an audio gap.

I know that Firmware 20.00 and up has Amp Modeling changes and new Speaker Drive/Thump features. Based on the descriptions for those, it seems like they're going to have a pretty significant impact in tone. Since I'm currently in the process of reamping a handful of songs, I haven't wanted to have to preset tweak after upgrading beyond 19.06.

Regardless, I can always roll back, so I will hopefully have some time later tonight to test whether the switching improvements in 20.00 and above solve this issue.
 
Ah, I see! My axe FX is currently at the rehearsal space. I'm going there tonight with my band. I can bring your preset and take a peak.

I just wonder, are there any other blocks than the amps who change channels when you go from dirty to clean or the other way around?
 
Ah, I see! My axe FX is currently at the rehearsal space. I'm going there tonight with my band. I can bring your preset an take a peak.

I just wonder, are there any other blocks than the amps who change channels when you go from dirty to clean or the other way around?
The Scene Changes from Dirty to Clean are as follows:
  • Activate Compressor block (pre Amps/Cabs)
  • Activate Flanger block (pre Amps/Cabs)
  • Bypass Amp Block 2 (with "Mute" Bypass Mode)
  • Activate Chorus block (post Amps/Cabs)
  • Activate Delay block (post Amps/Cabs)
 
The Scene Changes from Dirty to Clean are as follows:
  • Activate Compressor block (pre Amps/Cabs)
  • Activate Flanger block (pre Amps/Cabs)
  • Bypass Amp Block 2 (with "Mute" Bypass Mode)
  • Activate Chorus block (post Amps/Cabs)
  • Activate Delay block (post Amps/Cabs)
Ok, but do some of the other blocks (even those not in use load new settings? I've had delays make some artifacts due to changing channels. It was some time ago, so don't remember the firmware version I used when this happened.

But I found I could minimize the artifacts by not changing channels.

And about the seamless switching or gapless switching. This is hard to do with a dual amp setup. Because you need both amps at the same time, I would suggest to find a way to mask the gap. Because I'm not sure you can get totally rid of it.

But think of it this way: every real amp also have to switch the relay. That makes a popping/clip type sound. These things are often masked with the sound beeing in context in the room and other instruments.

One suggestion i got is to tweak the dirty amps to clean up to act as clean amps. That way you can use scene controllers to adjust the gain level and makeup for the level dropping or rising depending on witch way you switch.
It may not be optimal for you, but it's just a suggestion.

That beeing said. I am currently using 20.02. and the gap is substantially less noticable. And there are some great additions in the newest firmware. But!!

If I where you, I would wait with the upgrade during a studio project. I got several reasons for that! Unless you really want to tweak everything again 😉
 
To me it sounds/looks like the sound completely cuts for a slight moment vs. it being because of the tone change.
All digital modeling has a small gap when switching scenes or presets that involve changes in the settings for amps or drives. They have to let the “circuitry” settle down otherwise there’d be a burst of unwanted sound, so the signal is muted, the settling occurs, then it’s unmuted. Depending on the processing speed and algorithms and what changes, the gap can be more or less noticeable.

Analog/tube-amps/switching amps have a gap also. These days they use tiny relays which toggle very quickly, and tubes are able to transition their sound so it’s not as noticeable naturally, but back when we had mechanical switches that controlled the channels we’d often get a loud “thump” when changing channels or enabling boost. My Mesa IIB and my hotwired original Blackface Deluxes did. We accepted that as the price of the new technology and didn’t switch when sustaining a note or chord, in other words, we provided the muting manually.

Typically, to work around that, when using a modeler that allowed dual amp blocks, we’d use a mixer block connected to both amps in parallel, controlled by a foot controller to select which one was being used at the moment, as was said above. Your choice of running two amps in parallel and switching both at once is the same problem as switching a single amp block, the muting occurs but you don’t have the option to fade between two running amp blocks.

Cliff figured out a way around that a couple of months ago. It required adding a bit of additional code to every block but the results are really impressive. Transitions between presets and scenes are much smoother. Amp blocks don’t have to be in parallel nor do we have to use a mixer or multiplexer block to select the running amp. Smart people are good to have around. :)

I'm curious as to why this happens going from Dirty to Clean, but not the other way around?
It happens but it’s not as noticeable. If I remember right it’s tied to the gain level switchover between the two amp settings.

I know that Firmware 20.00 and up has Amp Modeling changes and new Speaker Drive/Thump features. Based on the descriptions for those, it seems like they're going to have a pretty significant impact in tone. Since I'm currently in the process of reamping a handful of songs, I haven't wanted to have to preset tweak after upgrading beyond 19.06.

Turn the thump setting to 0 and it’s disabled. Scene switching doesn’t affect the tone. The speaker impedance changes are going to be harder to work around, but you can update your firmware and see if the sound differences are what you want and keep the upgrade, or roll back to your previous firmware. Be sure to make a backup of the presets you are using first and remember you’ll need to update the Edit app too when rolling forward, and to restore the presets if you roll back.
 
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All digital modeling has a small gap when switching scenes or presets that involve changes in the settings for amps or drives. They have to let the “circuitry” settle down otherwise there’d be a burst of unwanted sound, so the signal is muted, the settling occurs, then it’s unmuted. Depending on the processing speed and algorithms and what is changing, the gap can be more or less noticeable.

Analog/tube-amps/switching amps have a gap also. These days they use tiny relays which toggle very quickly, and tubes are able to naturally transition their sound so it’s not as noticeable, but back when we had mechanical switches that controlled the channels we’d often get a loud “thump” when changing channels or enabling boost. My Mesa IIB and my hotwired original Blackface Deluxes did. We accepted that as the price of the new technology and didn’t switch when sustaining a note or chord, in other words, we provided the muting manually.

Typically, to work around that, when using a modeler that allowed dual amp blocks, we’d use a mixer block connected to both amps in parallel, controlled by a foot controller to select which one was being use at the moment, as was said above. Your choice of running two amps in parallel and switching both at once is the same problem as switching a single amp block, the muting occurs but you don’t have the option to fade between two running amp blocks.

Cliff figured out a way around that a couple months ago. It required adding a bit of additional code to every block but the results are really impressive. Transitions between presets and scenes are much smoother. Amp blocks don’t have to be in parallel nor do we have to use a mixer or multiplexer block to select the running amp. Smart people are good to have around. :)


It happens but it’s not as noticeable. If I remember right it’s tied to the gain level switchover between the two amp settings.



Turn the thump setting to 0 and it’s disabled. Scene switching doesn’t affect the tone. The speaker impedance changes are going to be harder to work around, but you can update your firmware and see if the sound differences are what you want and keep the upgrade, or roll back to your previous firmware. Be sure to make a backup of the presets you are using first, and remember you’ll need to update the Edit app too when rolling forward, and to restore the presets if you roll back.
What a great answer! Very detailed and precise. Love it
 
First thing i did was to level your scenes, because they were WAY off. Then I added a little delay to the Distorted scene. Now, as Greg F mentioned, you are going to have a little bit of gap because of the changes going from one scene to another. But hopefully they aren't quite as noticeable now.
 

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I figured that there was some "circuit changeover" time like a real amp. It's strange how it wasn't really audible (or visible in the waveform) going from Clean to Dirty, but it was from Dirty to Clean. I'm sure there is some underlying reason for that. Looking forward to seeing if the improvements in 20.02 fix that.

@Greg Ferguson thanks for the info + tips to make the upgrade to 20.02 smoother. I'm going to test that after taking @DougB415 's rebalanced preset for a spin.

I'll report back on both ASAP.
 
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