Balancing level settings - from Ax-Fx to Verve 12ma's

[j8stringer]

I'm using Verve 12ma &/or 8ma's as my FRFR system. They are fed through
output #1. Lately I have had to get more level from them for gigs and to do this
I increased the output at knob #1. After a few gigs, my clean tones are harsh
and very hard on the ears. I have tried adjusting Damp & Sag, but then my
notes will not cut through the band.

#1 Does anyone else feel the 12ma's have harsh highs?

#2 The 12ma's have a level control with a 0db point. My output #1 is set
from 9-10 o'clock and the 12ma's are set a bit past the 0 db point ( to the + side).

Where are other people setting their Output on the Ax-Fx, and the level
on their Verve's??? How are others balancing the two controls??

 

[gsegal]

Re: Level settings - from Ax-Fx to Verve 12ma's

Try matching with the bypass button. The fr should be about the same level when you bypass the axe, so that way you are not pushing your speaker past what its capable of. I do this with my atomic because it runs on tubes and I don't want push the tubes past their capability but I would think it would work on a 12 ma as well.

 

[j8stringer]

By bypass, you mean using the bypass button on the Amp block, then seeing
where your FRFR level is at??

 

[gsegal]

By bypass, you mean using the bypass button on the Amp block, then seeing
where your FRFR level is at??

What I mean is set the patch level according to the bypass button on the front
of the axe. Have the input level where its just getting in to the red when you hit the strings hard

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Level settings - from Ax-Fx to Verve 12ma's

Try matching with the bypass button. The fr should be about the same level when you bypass the axe,

Actually, global bypass increases the level as compared to a preset with all shunts (or every individual effect bypassed to "Thru").

so that way you are not pushing your speaker past what its capable of.

Incorrect. You will have the capability of driving any power amp into clipping with your levels matched to the bypass level.

I do this with my atomic because it runs on tubes and I don't want push the tubes past their capability but I would think it would work on a 12 ma as well.

It doesn't work on the Atomic either. The way to avoid overdriving your power amp or powered monitor is to pay attention to the levels you send the amp and to its level settings, watch for the overload/clip indicator (almost all amps/powered speakers have them), and, most importantly, listen for signs of distress. There are really no shortcuts to this if you find you must get the maximum volume your rig is capable of producing.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I'm using Verve 12ma &/or 8ma's as my FRFR system. They are fed through
output #1. Lately I have had to get more level from them for gigs and to do this
I increased the output at knob #1. After a few gigs, my clean tones are harsh
and very hard on the ears.

There are two possibilities: 1) you're clipping the input of the Verves, and 2) you're clipping their output stages. Given your control settings - a relatively low output from the Axe-Fx combined with higher amp level setting - the odds are great that you're running into the second one. The solution: turn down. Your amp can't produce the volume you're trying to get from it. If you continue, you may find yourself causing damage to speakers.

 

[j8stringer]

Thanks for the reply Jay. I was thinking that my system was not balanced
correctly. To little Ax-Fx output and to much 12ma level. I do keep an
eye on the overload lights on the Ax-Fx. I was getting harsh sound without
going into the red on the Ax-Fx. I will try increasing my output on the Ax-Fx and lowering levels on the Verves (-0db). The Verves face me so I can't see their
overload lights, but now I will check them.

During gigs, as I increased Ax-Fx output, I rolled back guitar volume, instead
of running on 9 and not have much extra room to go up. I want to be able to
run the guitar at 7 or 8, so I can jump to 10 for extra gain when needed.

I will post back how this works out.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

To little Ax-Fx output and to much 12ma level.

You'd have to try really hard to set the Axe-Fx so low that it can't clip your power amp.

I will try increasing my output on the Ax-Fx and lowering levels on the Verves (-0db).

That will not help. If anything, it will make matters worse, as it will take you closer to clipping the Verve's input stage.

During gigs, as I increased Ax-Fx output, I rolled back guitar volume,

This is a tone-changing technique at least as much as a means for adjusting volume.

of running on 9 and not have much extra room to go up. I want to be able to
run the guitar at 7 or 8, so I can jump to 10 for extra gain when needed.

You're missing the essential element here: the Axe-Fx has nothing to do with how loud your speaker/amp can get. If you're not clipping the Axe-Fx, and you're not clipping the input of the power amp, then you're trying to play your rig louder than it is capable of being played.

 

[Smilzo]

I was getting harsh sound without
going into the red on the Ax-Fx.

What led? Input or output?
Are you using amp with master and damping very high?
Are you using a delay? Could it possibly be clipping?
Where you controll your volume? If you bypass blocks one by one, you have some block that have high or low level?

 

[TimmyM]

Best solution for me IMHO YMMV....

Turn the Verve (or Atomic in my case) to full output.

Slowly turn up the output on the Axe-FX until desired volume is reached.

If it is distorting at a very very low volume, then something is wrong with your speaker.

This method will avoid the input being overdriven, which is where I have found the most problems.

My Atomic seems to handle turning up full very well. If you cannot reach your desired volume because distortion occurs, then unfortunately you have either got something wrong with your FRFR, or you have chosen unwisely the FRFR platform (ie it is underpowered for your needs).

TimmyM

 

[j8stringer]

I'm using Verve 12ma &/or 8ma's as my FRFR system. They are fed through
output #1. Lately I have had to get more level from them for gigs and to do this
I increased the output at knob #1. After a few gigs, my clean tones are harsh
and very hard on the ears.

There are two possibilities: 1) you're clipping the input of the Verves, and 2) you're clipping their output stages. Given your control settings - a relatively low output from the Axe-Fx combined with higher amp level setting - the odds are great that you're running into the second one. The solution: turn down. Your amp can't produce the volume you're trying to get from it. If you continue, you may find yourself causing damage to speakers.

I was turning down the 12ma's to deal with your item #2. The 12ma has a halfway
point of 0db, full up is +3db, and down (-0db) the other half of the rotation. My
Ax-Fx input and output LED's are not in the red. My Ax-Fx output is at 9 o'clock
on the knob, which I agree, is low. Should I just max the 12ma's level and adjust
the Ax-Fx to suit that setting? OR, should I set the 12ma's at their 0db (mid) point, and then set the Ax-Fx to that?? Jay, your speaker background is much
deeper than mine, what do you recommend?


I will check my settings on the AMP sim's Level and Damp to see if they are high,
but, output LED's are not in the red.

Again, thanks for the many suggestions.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I was turning down the 12ma's to deal with your item #2.

If that's happening, then you can't turn one down and the other up, as that will not change anything.

Let me be more explicit: if you are clipping the output of the amp in the Verve, you are asking for more than it can deliver. You cannot play it that loud. You must reduce your volume. There is no other choice. If the reduced volume is not loud enough, then you will have to get another monitor.

 

[Sixstring]

If your clipping the 12ma's you have to be at ear bleed volumes.

 

[j8stringer]

I was turning down the 12ma's to deal with your item #2.

If that's happening, then you can't turn one down and the other up, as that will not change anything.

Let me be more explicit: if you are clipping the output of the amp in the Verve, you are asking for more than it can deliver. You cannot play it that loud. You must reduce your volume. There is no other choice. If the reduced volume is not loud enough, then you will have to get another monitor.

That's just it, it's not that loud. I've played out since the 70's, with big, loud rigs.
This is nowhere near that, which is why I'm so plexed (no pun) about it. Well after all this I tried looking at it from another direction. I'm in a new home studio (an old
east coast city row house). I had used Auralex type pads with a metal top surface, to un-couple the speakers from the floor and kill some vibrations (gotta
keep peace with neighbors). When I removed them, the harsh sounds went away.
The plates may have added sympathetic vibrations or somthing, because
my 12ma's sound better than they used to. Now I need to re-EQ, to remove
the changes I made in an effort to smooth things out !
I am sorry to have dragged everyone along on this (so much for that cool
guitar player image!), but thanks to your suggestions I did reach a solution.