Axe-FX III with Real cab vs. the Real thing

Is there a noticeable difference when your playing Axe-Fx III with power amp and cab vs. Amp + cab?


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Glad to hear that from Fryette, because I prefer using the amp/modeled impedance curves (instead of resistive load) when using the Power Station, too.
Same here. I found that my Axe-Fx 3 sounded and felt closest to my real amps direct to the cab when I figured out the right speaker impedance curve (matching the cab) to use with the Power Station.

Makes me think if Fractal should pair up with some stereo poweramp maker like Matrix to make a "best for Fractal" poweramp that could maybe somehow measure the impedance curve of the connected cab and apply it to the Fractal amp model speaker settings.
 
Same here. I found that my Axe-Fx 3 sounded and felt closest to my real amps direct to the cab when I figured out the right speaker impedance curve (matching the cab) to use with the Power Station.

Makes me think if Fractal should pair up with some stereo poweramp maker like Matrix to make a "best for Fractal" poweramp that could maybe somehow measure the impedance curve of the connected cab and apply it to the Fractal amp model speaker settings.
I believe that was something that was being looked into, where the connected cab could be 'measured' by the Fractal device to ID it's IC. This would involve something similar to the procedure for shooting an Impulse Response at a guess.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...version-11-00-public-beta.155500/post-1850920
 
I believe that was something that was being looked into, where the connected cab could be 'measured' by the Fractal device to ID it's IC. This would involve something similar to the procedure for shooting an Impulse Response at a guess.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...version-11-00-public-beta.155500/post-1850920
Wow! I wonder what ever happened to this. I’m currently considering building the box to measure the impedance curves of my cabs mentioned here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/speaker-impedance-curve-measurements.155738/

But AFAIK, I’d still be unable to save the impedance curve in the Axe. I reckon I could get pretty close with the low and high frequency resonance controls, tho this would be restricted to a single preset and would change every time I loaded a new amp model.

This also has me wondering about the upcoming cab lab update. If Fractal decides to go in the direction of Helix where there are stock cabs with multiple mics/positions, hopefully we’ll have the impedance curves for those particular cabs as well, this should up the accuracy another couple of notches.

Likely wishful thinking but I’d love to have something like the GUI usability of the cabinet section in Amplitube 5 with Fractal flexibility, modeling accuracy, and IR quality. That’d be truly next level!
 
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I'm going to post the email I received from David Phelge at Fryette in regards to questions I had about impedance curves with the Axe and the LXII power amp. Hopefully it helps:

Glad to hear that from Fryette, because I prefer using the amp/modeled impedance curves (instead of resistive load) when using the Power Station, too.
Pro tip for using a Powerstation. Use the effects loop input instead of the line in input. You’ll notice you get much more volume and full power of the tubes. That is something that Fryette suggested and it is immediately noticeable for the better.
 
Pro tip for using a Powerstation. Use the effects loop input instead of the line in input. You’ll notice you get much more volume and full power of the tubes. That is something that Fryette suggested and it is immediately noticeable for the better.

+1

I finally got around to trying this and I agree. Going into the effects return of the PS-2 yields more immediacy and punch.
 
We recently did a blind A/B test:

The cabinet was a stereo 2x12.

Into one side was a Deluxe Reverb. Into the other side was the Axe-Fx into a Matrix amp. The side which each was plugged into was randomized between tests.

The Axe-Fx's speaker impedance curve was set to match the cabinet (it's one of the stock curves). The knobs on the model were set to match the knobs on the amp.

The volume levels were matched.

A footswitch was connected to switch back-and-forth between the amp and the Axe-Fx. The tester was unaware which side of the cabinet was the amp or the Axe-Fx.

In every case the tester picked the device plugged into the right side of the cabinet as sounding "better", regardless of whether it was the Axe-Fx or the amp.

Form you own conclusions.
Three causal elements:
1. The Axe FX 3 is brilliantly conceived, executed, and continuously improved.
2. The technical variables were controlled.
3. “The volume levels were matched”.
 
Pro tip for using a Powerstation. Use the effects loop input instead of the line in input. You’ll notice you get much more volume and full power of the tubes. That is something that Fryette suggested and it is immediately noticeable for the better.
What do you set the FX level to? Hi or Lo?
 
I'm going to post the email I received from David Phelge at Fryette in regards to questions I had about impedance curves with the Axe and the LXII power amp. Hopefully it helps:
There was a whole long thread on TGP about this. I thought I remembered them saying the opposite at the time. I remember leaving the thread feeling somewhat unsatisfied with a difference in behavior between:

  • A tube amp plugged into the reactive load of the PS, which is connected to its tube poweramp which has reactivity with the speakers. That is said to be one of its advantages over a solid state device.
  • A fractal emulating a reactively loaded tube amp connected to the same tube poweramp.

The answer was "The fractal isn't a real amp"... which is obviously true, but certainly seems like a cop-out, especially when you can repeatedly put the Fractal in situations of direct comparison and it always comes up really close.

I need to go hunt the thread down. Dave @ Fryette obviously knows what he is talking about but in my experience, it didn't sound like the tube amp in question when played through a PS2 unless I eased off the reactivity in the Fractal- not disabled. When the Fractal is played through a solid state amp, it compares very favorably to the real amp so I suspect the Fractal isn't off the mark in simulating a reactively loaded tube amp. 100.00% identical? maybe not but it is super close. I suspect the issue is just the combined reactivity and you don't experience it with a tube amp because the reactive load in the powerstation is calibrated for it's intended duty with the accompanying poweramp.

edit: foundit: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.2136319/

Edit:
Reading back through that thread years later, I continue to think that the Powerstation device is at its best doing what it says it will do: make a tube amp louder or quieter without screwing up its tone. Using either the reactive load or the poweramp by themselves doesn't get the best of what it does.

It sure looks like the load and the poweramp are calibrated to work together to make tube amps louder or quieter without screwing up their tone more than being a poweramp for some other device, including a device reactively loaded by some other load.

I see my experiment in that thread where I ran a tube amp into the powerstation reactive load and then out (via the FX send) to a solid state amp and the result was a dead sounding tone at the same reactivity switch settings.

More recently, I've run the tube amp into a Fractal x-load reactive load (simulating UK 4x12 load) and run that into a solid state amp and the result sounded very much like the amp on its own, (and very much like a similar amp modeled in the Fractal sounds through the same solid state amp. ) That tells me it isn't the Fractal- it is something else. My suspicion (again) is that the load and poweramp in the powerstation are designed to work together and if you use one or the other you aren't getting the full equation.
 
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+1

I finally got around to trying this and I agree. Going into the effects return of the PS-2 yields more immediacy and punch.
Exactly. I was really disappointed with the volume output and punch until I found this out. For some reason the line in signal path is just much quieter with lesser total volume and punch. Basically what they told me is bypassing that whole circuit by going directly into the effects return basically sends your signal directly to the power amp since the effects return is last in the signal chain. Once I did this, it was like I unleashed a whole new amp because I knew the volume and punch were there when using it to reamp a real tube head but with the line in it was always quieter and missing something.

when doing this does it bypass the presence and depth control?
No, those work as long as you're using the power amp which you are by using the effects loop return.

What do you set the FX level to? Hi or Lo?
I can't remember off the top of my head (I'm not in front of it) but whichever one gives the most volume output.
omething.
 
I get what you're going for, but I'm not voting on this poll because the question and possible choices are not well-constructed in my humble opinion.
like most surveys I run across (some ones I've constructed also I guess), the questions try to pigeon hole respondents into one of the author's pre-conceived opinions none of which really matching what many respondents would say in a free form answer.
 
so three years later and still no consensus on the best way to run fractal into powerstation?

Several workable options have been presented, depending on your circumstances and what is important to you.

If I had one again, I would run into the line-in with power amp sims on, reactive load selected and dial the resonances back to taste, per model. This sounds like a real amp rig and I enjoy playing it.

If I wanted to compensate for what would be a slightly flatter FOH feed due to dialing out some reactivity in the model, I'd either EQ or tone match that output and call it a day. I'd get great tone that inspired me to play and an audience would get great tone and a great performance.

The whole reason why someone would use a power station is because they value the "traditional" guitar player experience and don't prefer the "playback" experience that the audience gets. For people that enjoy the "playback" experience, none of this stuff applies to them because they are already running full range.
 
If I could, I would have voted "I can match them where I can't tell a difference switching back and forth quickly, but after playing one for a while, I can tell a difference when I switch"
 
Pro tip for using a Powerstation. Use the effects loop input instead of the line in input. You’ll notice you get much more volume and full power of the tubes. That is something that Fryette suggested and it is immediately noticeable for the better.
I wonder if this would apply to the LXII as well. I will have to try it.
 
Several workable options have been presented, depending on your circumstances and what is important to you.

If I had one again, I would run into the line-in with power amp sims on, reactive load selected and dial the resonances back to taste, per model. This sounds like a real amp rig and I enjoy playing it.

If I wanted to compensate for what would be a slightly flatter FOH feed due to dialing out some reactivity in the model, I'd either EQ or tone match that output and call it a day. I'd get great tone that inspired me to play and an audience would get great tone and a great performance.

The whole reason why someone would use a power station is because they value the "traditional" guitar player experience and don't prefer the "playback" experience that the audience gets. For people that enjoy the "playback" experience, none of this stuff applies to them because they are already running full range.

Yeah I've read through that whole TGP thread a few times by now. What about best practice for running Fractal > Power Station > Real Cab? Use an impedance curve that most closely matches the real cab, or set it flat (resistive load)? Seems like there was debate on that.
 
What is working best for me with the Power Station, is using an impedance curve that I like, which is the Mesa 2x12. Then I put a parametric EQ at the end of the chain for high cuts and low cuts, Like I would do if using an IR. I am not hearing any hyped lows and highs using this method.
 
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