Axe-FX III with Real cab vs. the Real thing

Is there a noticeable difference when your playing Axe-Fx III with power amp and cab vs. Amp + cab?


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AtomicBlaze

Inspired
First off I love the Axe-Fx III, and have no plans of selling it.

The reason for this poll is I have a Mesa Mark VI and Mesa 2x12 cab on order which is going to run me about 4k (store credit from trading in guitars), and I am wondering if I am making a big mistake and I won't even notice or hear a difference from my current setup below:

I just bought a Power Station PS2-A and a Marshall MX212r cab to run with the Axe-Fx III, because I haven't really been enjoying listening to guitar through my Yamaha HS8 studio monitors or headphones lately. The reason I waited 5 years to try the modeler + cab setup is because I had previously tried it with the Helix when that first came out and I thought it sounded terrible with my Power Station and Mesa Cab at the time. It turns out I think it was either just user error or I didn't like the Helix amp modeling, because I really love the sound of the Axe-Fx III with the Power Station and Cab.

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We recently did a blind A/B test:

The cabinet was a stereo 2x12.

Into one side was a Deluxe Reverb. Into the other side was the Axe-Fx into a Matrix amp. The side which each was plugged into was randomized between tests.

The Axe-Fx's speaker impedance curve was set to match the cabinet (it's one of the stock curves). The knobs on the model were set to match the knobs on the amp.

The volume levels were matched.

A footswitch was connected to switch back-and-forth between the amp and the Axe-Fx. The tester was unaware which side of the cabinet was the amp or the Axe-Fx.

In every case the tester picked the device plugged into the right side of the cabinet as sounding "better", regardless of whether it was the Axe-Fx or the amp.

Form you own conclusions.
 
We recently did a blind A/B test:

The cabinet was a stereo 2x12.

Into one side was a Deluxe Reverb. Into the other side was the Axe-Fx into a Matrix amp. The side which each was plugged into was randomized between tests.

The Axe-Fx's speaker impedance curve was set to match the cabinet (it's one of the stock curves). The knobs on the model were set to match the knobs on the amp.

The volume levels were matched.

A footswitch was connected to switch back-and-forth between the amp and the Axe-Fx. The tester was unaware which side of the cabinet was the amp or the Axe-Fx.

In every case the tester picked the device plugged into the right side of the cabinet as sounding "better", regardless of whether it was the Axe-Fx or the amp.

Form you own conclusions.
This matches a lot of my own testing, where even though I knew which is which, by the time you stomp a switch enough times to swap, you get confused which was which if they are dialed close enough.

My setups were these:
  1. "Into real cab": Fryette PS-100 -> Bluetone 4x10 with 10" Greenbacks or TubeTown 1x12 with Alnico Gold
    1. Tube amp -> Fryette PS-100 amp in (reactive loadbox), Fryette poweramp out -> cab.
    2. Axe-Fx 3 Mk2 -> Fryette PS-100 line in, Fryette poweramp out -> cab.
  2. "Direct into studio monitors":
    1. Tube amp -> Fryette PS-100 amp in, Fryette line-out -> Axe-Fx 3 -> cab sim IRs created of the Bluetone or Tubetown cabs -> Genelec M40 studio monitors.
    2. Axe-Fx 3 -> cab sims -> Genelecs.
I used a Sonarworks XREF20 "almost flat" reference mic to make IRs of my cabs using the Axe-Fx 3 IR capture feature.

Since the "Fender-meets-Marshall" Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL and "modernized Vox AC30" Victory VC35 heads are not modeled on the Axe-Fx 3 directly, I used the following:

Real ampReal amp channelAxe-Fx 3 modelAxe-Fx 3 model is based on
Bogner Goldfinger 45 SuperleadCleanSuper VerbFender Super Reverb
OD '69 modePlexi 50WMarshall Superlead 50W
OD '77 modePlexi 2204Marshall JMP 2204
OD '81 modeShiver LeadBogner Shiva
Victory VC35 "The Copper"Only one channelAC-20 12AX7 TrebleMorgan AC-20 Deluxe

This might be a bit off because it's just off the top of my head and it's been about a year so I don't remember the Plexi and Super verb variants totally. JCM800 50W would work just fine for the Bogner GF '81 mode most likely.

The amp models were each dialed by ear to what was my preferred settings on the real amps. No advanced settings were used besides setting the powertubes to 6V6 for the Fender/Marshall models since that's what the Bogner uses.

Volumes were always matched with a decibel meter at 1m distance from the speakers. Testing was done at about 90 dB @ 1m volume levels which is IMO the "tube amps start to sound real good" point. For studio monitors I used maybe about 80-85 dB @ 1m because they are listened to close up, at ear level and in stereo.

Results were that I could dial things to sound very close, but felt there was that last final mile missing when it comes to playing feel. I found that by setting the amp models to the closest matching speaker impedance curve. For the Bluetone 4x10, the 4x10 Brit JM45 impedance curve did the job. For the Tubetown, the AC-20 stock curve was good match. I tried to set the curve manually but found it too difficult to judge by ear so I stuck to the closest preset.

This made me pretty confident about the Axe-Fx 3 capabilities as the results sounded and felt just as good whether I was running into the poweramp and real cabs. The IR vs real cab in the room also sounded very similar if I put my ears closer to the center of the speakers where the mic would be.

Real amps are great in their simplicity - plug into a great cab and turn it loud enough, all good. But I don't see a huge need to own them when most of the time my usecases require less volume so the Axe-Fx 3 is just way more practical.
 
In every case the tester picked the device plugged into the right side of the cabinet as sounding "better", regardless of whether it was the Axe-Fx or the amp.

Interesting. Maybe the right side speaker in that 2x12 sounded better for some reason? I wonder if you swapped speaker sides if the preference would go to the left then.
 
In every case the tester picked the device plugged into the right side of the cabinet as sounding "better", regardless of whether it was the Axe-Fx or the amp.

Form you own conclusions.

Um, hello. You obviously haven't been reading enough online forums, otherwise you'd know that every single tube amp sounds like tubes and every single modeler sounds digital all the time which is a word that definitely represents a specific and definable thing, and definitely does not mean "the simple fact that I know it's digital impedes my judgement to the point that I'm incapable of impartiality."
 
The right speaker was louder
No. The speaker volumes were matched using a dB meter.

The right speaker just sounds better.

No two speakers are exactly the same. No two amps are exactly the same. No two guitars are exactly the same.

People get all hung up on whether something sounds exactly like something else. It doesn't matter. All that matters is what sounds good.
 
Just buy used.

Yeah, why spend $5500 when you can just spend $3800? :tearsofjoy:

The cheapest LPC on Reverb right now is $3K, for a player-grade Norlin-era LPC with frets “good enough to play on”.

My 2 dream guitars are a white Les Paul Custom, or a white ESP eclipse. But they are so overpriced now, not sure if I could stomach paying 6k for a guitar.

How about meeting somewhere in the middle? I just got an Edwards LP Custom that I’d put up against any Gibson LP Custom without hesitation. You can get them for about $1K on Reverb/Ebay. They’re spec’d just like an LPC, no odd shapes, even the headstock is exact. I’m trying to sell a Deluxe Reverb right now so I can buy one in white. I’m really loving the MIJ Les Pauls as of late, that’s an Orville sitting next to it (Gibson managed Orville in the 90’s). Aside from a few rare Burny’s and some Tokai’s, Edwards is the only company that did ebony boards on the LP Customs. Edwards IS ESP, so really, you get both of what ya wanted!

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And without devolving into a Gibson QC thread, there’s no way I’d ever fork over the cash to buy a Gibson without playing it first, but I have no problem buying more of these Edwards LPC’s without ever seeing them in person if it’s new or in mint condition!
 
I don't think you will regret owning the real Mesa. I can't really say what the differences are, I like my Axe through cabs and direct and I also like my vintage fenders through the same cabs. By keeping a few key tube amps around whenever I get the GAS I just reconfigure and play through the alternative. Right now I am using the Axe for FX only and playing through a 72 super in a head cab and really enjoying it but 6 months from now I might be back on the axe with powerstage and cabs. There is no better or worse I agree with Cliff completely on that point. Basically, do you need the mesa no, but you will probably still have a lot of fun with it and thats what all of this is about at least for me.
 
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