Axe Fx iii with power amp and real cabinet

T

Thenewexhibit

Experienced
I know the Axe is so spot on to the real thing, and I may have answered my own question just then 😂, and I mean no disrespect to anyone in asking this (Cliff or the developers etc.), but how real/convincing/close does the Axe iii (or FM9) sound through a real guitar cabinet in regards to the real amp plugged into the same cabinet? i.e. a 5150 II head through a Friedman 212 vs the Axe 6160 + LEAD into a Friedman 212. I know there will be tolerance differences in regards to settings of course. I was considering the Seymour Duncan Power stage because it’s very portable.
 
There’s been a lot of discussion about this over the years, there’s one currently going on regarding the JPCII+ VS AxeFX in another thread.

IMO; the essence and signature sounds of specific brands is all there. IE- the Mesa’s sound like Mesa’s and the Peavey’s sound like Peavey’s. It won’t be an EXACT match to the amp you own, but it’ll be quite dead on with the amp that Cliff actually used to make the model with, as he’s demonstrated over the years. I’ve owned a Dual Rec, Mark IV, XXX and a 5150, I still get those tones from the Fractal gear. If you get hung up on subtle differences you may be disappointed as I’ve seen happen over the years, but if you’re going for the general sound of an amp, it’ll be there.

FWIW, my live rig is an FM9 into a Duncan Powerstage 170 into a 2x12 cabinet (WGS Retro 30’s) and I play on this more than the AxeFXIII in my studio. Mostly because it’s in my living room so I can noodle while watching tv, but not doing the whole IR search is a big benefit. I just pick an amp, turn the knobs until it sounds how I want it and I’m off to the races.
 
Thenewexhibit said:
I know the Axe is so spot on to the real thing, and I may have answered my own question just then 😂, and I mean no disrespect to anyone in asking this (Cliff or the developers etc.), but how real/convincing/close does the Axe iii (or FM9) sound through a real guitar cabinet in regards to the real amp plugged into the same cabinet? i.e. a 5150 II head through a Friedman 212 vs the Axe 6160 + LEAD into a Friedman 212. I know there will be tolerance differences in regards to settings of course. I was considering the Seymour Duncan Power stage because it’s very portable.
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This gets into the philosophy underneath modeler technology. Remember that modelers imitate the entire recording or live chain of effects, amp and cab-IR and microphone. A guitar cab breaks that chain and injects its own influence in the sound that can be different than what the cab-IR would introduce. Some people like that, some people don't. Using an FRFR as the final step keeps the chain intact and is the best way to keep that recording or live chain working as designed.

Cliff talks about it in Connections and levels > Setups. It's a long page that covers the different things that affect the final sound and is well worth reading.

I have always used smaller amps, tipped back so they pointed at my head, and miked them if the room needed it, so the fabled "amp in the room" sound means something very different to me than to those who shoot the sound at their knees. I use two EV PXM-12ML cabs when I'm using my modeler and the sound I get from that rig is incredibly close to the sound I get from my tube amps, to the point that I don't make any adjustments for EQ after the AMP block because the Fractal modelers sound just as I'd expect. Once the sound starts bouncing around in the room the amp and modeled output sounds the same too; I've compared them when friends are running on my gear because I was curious, and was very satisfied.

Turn off cab modeling in your preset or remove the cab block, use a clean solid-state amp that doesn't color the sound, and run into the guitar cab, and you should get the sound of that modeled amp through your real speakers. You'll lose that little bit of cab-modeling flexibility the modeler offers but everything else should behave the same. You might want to adjust the speaker resonance and speaker impedance curves because solid-state amps react differently to cabinets than the (modeled) tube-power amps will.

You don't say which Power Stage model, but if it has the IR built-in, I'd recommend bypassing it and rely on the guitar cab itself to add its own color. Stacking IRs is doable but can confuse people when they can't figure out why something doesn't sound right, and then they tweak to try to get around it.

And make sure you are running the volume at stage levels; You want those speakers moving air.
 
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Having owned 4 or 5 stereo ss power-amps since owning my 1st Axefx, I'm conflicted about going into some of the tube based p.a. options like LxII, Syn..., so have stopped just short of pulling the trigger on one a few times. Though I suspect it would improve my sound with p.a. modelling on into real cabs (cab modelling off), the thing that keeps me back is that I feel Fractal's power amp modelling is "muddled / muddied" by having an additional set of real pre/power tubes introduced into the overall equation and not factored into Axefx's modelling algorithms. Having come so far with Fractal modelling, and with such precision and detail built into the modelled pre and power tube sections of Axefx, the LxII type solutions just kinda feel like an abandonment of that quest for a full 100% modelled solution. Pre + Power-amp modelling should logically, by design afaik, be fed through a flat non-tube (SS) p.a. like my flat tubeless Matrix GT1000fx, and provide that oomph, thump...described above at some point along the evolutionary line, if not already if one can choose the right settings (I have a feeling the secret may be in properly measuring real cab impedance and setting Ax correctly for that measurement but whadda I know)... so I stick with my Matrix betting that Fractal will get us there - and feeling like i'm still pretty well all-in 100% on the modelling till the end - but dang it's hard to resist the temptation to get me one a them there clean flatish tube power amps n getn'r thumpin!
 
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DBraz said:
For recording I use the AFX3 direct but when rehearsing or playing live I have my AFX3 going through a Fryette Lxii powering a traditional cab. In my opinion it's pretty close.
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I've thought about that sort of rig. I find my Fryette PS-100 is a little bit noisy and I have heard complaints about the LXII being noisy. While this is not going to be an issue for live use, how do you (or other LXII owners) find that setup at lower volume?

I think this sort of setup can be pretty powerful because you can run it in stereo or wet/dry without hauling a ton of gear.

To me the easiest way to get a modeler to sound on par with a tube amp is to run it through a "neutral" tube poweramp like the Fryette into a real guitar cab. Using studio monitors, PA type FRFR setups etc is always about dialing those cab sims to perfection and the end result is still closer to what the audience would hear through a PA.

There's also no substitute for real actual volume. If you are going to compare to a tube amp, get a decibel meter and make sure you are actually playing at the same volume. When modelers amp sim behavior is indepenent of their volume, we often run them quieter and then perceive that sound as "not as good" as a tube amp that needs to be louder.
 
I used a Mesa 20/20 and also Matrix GT1000 FX. About 4 weeks ago i bought a Syn 5050 and the sun shines much brighter now :)
The Matrix i used 2-3 times and missed something...
I run it in a 4x12 Coffee Cab and couldnt be happier (power amp modelling ON, cab modelling OFF)

Greetings
 
Thenewexhibit said:
I know the Axe is so spot on to the real thing, and I may have answered my own question just then 😂, and I mean no disrespect to anyone in asking this (Cliff or the developers etc.), but how real/convincing/close does the Axe iii (or FM9) sound through a real guitar cabinet in regards to the real amp plugged into the same cabinet? i.e. a 5150 II head through a Friedman 212 vs the Axe 6160 + LEAD into a Friedman 212. I know there will be tolerance differences in regards to settings of course. I was considering the Seymour Duncan Power stage because it’s very portable.
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1. I’m a tube amp guy. I have a lot of them, mostly classic old vintage stuff. Same with my classic old pedals. Seriously.

2. I don’t like FRFR speaker cabs. My Out1 stereo pair go to FOH. Out3 stereo pair route to a QSC power amp feeding two 2x12 guitar cabs (for stage). Out2 is for a Crown power amped Heil talk box. Out4 is an fx loop (Boonar).

Context out of the way…
When I bypass all that, and compare my AF3+QSC versus any of my original amps, using a common guitar cabinet, it’s right on. By the way, I think it isn’t just the tone. The trick is to make the AF3+QSC loud enough. Never underestimate pushed air. Tube guitar amps are powerful. AITR.
 
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I use an FM3 into the FX Return of a pair of Marshall JCM900s and 1936 cabs when I play live. It sounds the way I wish my JCM900s would. For me the Fractal is better. However, when comparing it to my Peavey 6505+ through the same cabs, the Fractal is just as good but gives me more control over feel, sustain, and of course all the other great effects.

So no matter what, Fractal wins for me.
 
skydog said:
1. I’m a tube amp guy. I have a lot of them, mostly classic old vintage stuff. Same with my classic old pedals. Seriously.

2. I don’t like FRFR speaker cabs. My Out1 stereo pair go to FOH. Out3 stereo pair route to a QSC power amp feeding two 2x12 guitar cabs (for stage). Out2 is for a Crown power amped Heil talk box. Out4 is an fx loop (Boonar).

Context out of the way…
When I bypass all that, and compare my AF3+QSC versus any of my original amps, using a common guitar cabinet, it’s right on. By the way, I think is t just the tone. The trick is to make the AF3+QSC loud enough. Never underestimate pushed air. Tube guitar amps are powerful. AITR.
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What kind of QSC power amp are you using? Was also wondering if a Hafler 1500 power amp I have I have sitting around might work for this.
 
Masterofsparks said:
What kind of QSC power amp are you using? Was also wondering if a Hafler 1500 power amp I have I have sitting around might work for this.
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Should work great I would think. If you already have it and cables to connect it, give it a go. Make copies of the presets you’ll be using. Bypass your cab block. Then you can eq for the cab and leave your FRFR presets intact.
 
Thenewexhibit said:
I know the Axe is so spot on to the real thing, and I may have answered my own question just then 😂, and I mean no disrespect to anyone in asking this (Cliff or the developers etc.), but how real/convincing/close does the Axe iii (or FM9) sound through a real guitar cabinet in regards to the real amp plugged into the same cabinet? i.e. a 5150 II head through a Friedman 212 vs the Axe 6160 + LEAD into a Friedman 212. I know there will be tolerance differences in regards to settings of course. I was considering the Seymour Duncan Power stage because it’s very portable.
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I tested this exact thing using a 5150 LBX II vs 5153 Blue model. I expected and wanted the real amp to be better. It wasn't. The fact that the AFX overcame my bias convinced me to sell my 5150.

That was with the AX8 and a 1x12 cab. I still prefer cabs over FRFR and is how I use my FM3 today

Side note. Many like the SD power stage. But I prefer the Orange Pedal Baby. Or if you have money, Fryette power station. I haven't tried the Fryette personally but in my testing the Orange does a good job of giving tube feel. SD seemed harsh to me. Differences were subtle though.
 
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JRod4928 said:
Side note. Many like the SD power stage. But I prefer the Orange Pedal Baby. Or if you have money, Fryette power station. I haven't tried the Fryette personally but in my testing the Orange does a good job of giving tube feel. SD seemed harsh to me. Differences were subtle though.
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The Orange is a class AB amp. I was seriously considering that one. Then I spotted a class D Crown on CL for a decent price. Sounds good to me and will drive 2 speakers. I’ve always been skeptical about class D. I was skeptical about all the digital audio tech. But f*ck it I’m all in on this stuff now.
 
skolacki said:
The Orange is a class AB amp. I was seriously considering that one. Then I spotted a class D Crown on CL for a decent price. Sounds good to me and will drive 2 speakers. I’ve always been skeptical about class D. I was skeptical about all the digital audio tech. But f*ck it I’m all in on this stuff now.
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haha, It'll work well for you I'm sure.

I only noticed subtle things I didn't like about the PS170 was because I was doing a big power amp shootout, so I bought amps at prices I knew I could resell to break even, and did a bunch of A/B/C testing. I have a big thread on TGP summarizing what I found.... At these cheaper price points you have to pick where you want to sacrifice, and for me I sacrificed some flatness to get better 'feel' (Orange), while maintaining great clarity... It works in my travel case too.
 
I love my Axe III through a poweramp and cab! I have mine running through an Orange Pedalbaby 100 into a 212 and it sounds amazing!
 
skolacki said:
Should work great I would think. If you already have it and cables to connect it, give it a go. Make copies of the presets you’ll be using. Bypass your cab block. Then you can eq for the cab and leave your FRFR presets intact.
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Thanks - will give it a shot!
 
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