Axe-Fx from FRFR (Verve 12ma) to a ENGL tube power amp and cabs

J

Joost Assink

Member
I got into the axe-fx game in november of last year and have played on two Verve 12mas until yesterday. I liked the sound but I didn't love it. It was too stiff and too hi-fi. The high end sounds too fizzy when distorted, etc,

Now I tried taming that with the power amp modelling, the HF resonance, treble, presence, bright cap value.... you name it. Still couldn't get it to my taste. Also the interaction of power amp and speakers (IRs), didn't feel real enough for me.

So I got my hands on a stereo tube power amp and hooked it up to my cabs with my favorite Scumback speakers (M75/H75 combo)

MUCH better. the patches sounded more real and the high end was much more pleasing. The sound was more that of a tube amp. Also, patches that just didn't work for me before on the Verves, worked fine on the new setup. I have been tweaking every parameter in the Axe-Fx, tried PEQ, different IRs and it all sounded nice, but I couldn't get anywhere near the tone and response I am getting now.

It's only been 24h so I still need to tweak a lot of patches to the new situation. Also, I need to play with levels on the axe and the power amp. I left the power amp sim on on the Axe and turned the cabs off. But already, I feel like I've made a big step up.

I got the Engl e840/50 used at a really good price and it's only 12 kg (26 lbs), so together with the axe in a light 4U plastic rack case, it's still lighter than most combos.

I put in a Papst replacement fan in the Engl power amp at only 18 dB and I have the quiet Silenx fan in the Axe, so noise is not an issue.

Just thought I'd share this with the group.
 
Joost Assink said:
I got into the axe-fx game in november of last year and have played on two Verve 12mas until yesterday. I liked the sound but I didn't love it. It was too stiff and too hi-fi. The high end sounds too fizzy when distorted, etc,

Now I tried taming that with the power amp modelling, the HF resonance, treble, presence, bright cap value.... you name it. Still couldn't get it to my taste. Also the interaction of power amp and speakers (IRs), didn't feel real enough for me.

So I got my hands on a stereo tube power amp and hooked it up to my cabs with my favorite Scumback speakers (M75/H75 combo)

MUCH better. the patches sounded more real and the high end was much more pleasing. The sound was more that of a tube amp. Also, patches that just didn't work for me before on the Verves, worked fine on the new setup. I have been tweaking every parameter in the Axe-Fx, tried PEQ, different IRs and it all sounded nice, but I couldn't get anywhere near the tone and response I am getting now.

It's only been 24h so I still need to tweak a lot of patches to the new situation. Also, I need to play with levels on the axe and the power amp. I left the power amp sim on on the Axe and turned the cabs off. But already, I feel like I've made a big step up.

I got the Engl e840/50 used at a really good price and it's only 12 kg (26 lbs), so together with the axe in a light 4U plastic rack case, it's still lighter than most combos.

I put in a Papst replacement fan in the Engl power amp at only 18 dB and I have the quiet Silenx fan in the Axe, so noise is not an issue.

Just thought I'd share this with the group.
Click to expand...

Congrats. So now the Verve has to go. It looks like you are the next one switching from FR to tube amp/guitar cab.

Regards
 
Aha, you bit the bullet. Great that you found that amp.
We gotta do a Dutch Axe-Fx meeting again soon.
 
DADA said:
Congrats. So now the Verve has to go. It looks like you are the next one switching from FR to tube amp/guitar cab.

Regards
Click to expand...

Yes, I am a convert! So if you know anyone for the Verves, let me know ;-)

yek said:
Aha, you bit the bullet. Great that you found that amp.
We gotta do a Dutch Axe-Fx meeting again soon.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I got it for 500 euros!!!
Yeah! I am game!
 
If you want to really hear what the Axe can do in a
tube power amp/guitar cab setup, audition an EVM 12L
against those Scumbacks.
 
Totally agree. IMO hi freq drivers have no place in a guitar rig. Save those cab sims for the studio.

Also, ditto on the EVLs.
 
I understand the reasoning behind pushing for FRFR to be successful and it has it's place for sure, but I think the Ax with a tube power amp and a cab or two is as close as you will get to that amp feel! And it's only 24 hours and you feel this way..says something!!
 
Have you tried the Atomic Reactor FRs? It's this reason that they were created.

And, if you haven't already heard of them, you may want to read up on Egnater Tone Bras for reducing ice pick noise on the audience since you're using regular cabs.
 
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Joost Assink said:
Yes, I am a convert! So if you know anyone for the Verves, let me know ;-)



Yeah, I got it for 500 euros!!!
Yeah! I am game!
Click to expand...

Very good price, i payed mine used 450€!! Never tried the Axe-fx with a serious FRFR system, but i'm fine with my 840/50, very realistic sounds. Have you ever tried to use the SAG??
 
smilefan said:
If you want to really hear what the Axe can do in a
tube power amp/guitar cab setup, audition an EVM 12L
against those Scumbacks.
Click to expand...

I might try em but I didn't like them when I tried them with my regular tube amps. So I'd have to go back to using IRs.

prometh said:
Have you tried the Atomic Reactor FRs? It's this reason that they were created.

And, if you haven't already heard of them, you may want to read up on Egnater Tone Bras for reducing ice pick noise on the audience since you're using regular cabs.
Click to expand...

I didn't try the atomics because two atomics were more expensive than this setup and I've heard the tweeters distort on stage volumes. Plus then I'd be back using tweeters which doesn't work for me. Also, I know and love Scumbacks and I didn't know what 12" speakers were in the atomics. I have no more ice pick problem in thus setup.

killo said:
Very good price, i payed mine used 450EUR!! Never tried the Axe-fx with a serious FRFR system, but i'm fine with my 840/50, very realistic sounds. Have you ever tried to use the SAG??
Click to expand...

I use power amp sims on all my presets with various amounts of SAG. Is that what you meant? Btw, if you want to take care of fan noise, look at the Papst 8880N fan. Only 18db but doesn't push as much air as the regular fan. I'm ok with that though. Even after two hours it's only warm to the touch

geetarded said:
Totally agree. IMO hi freq drivers have no place in a guitar rig.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly!!
 
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geetarded said:
Totally agree. IMO hi freq drivers have no place in a guitar rig. Save those cab sims for the studio.

Also, ditto on the EVLs.
Click to expand...

FRFR seems to be working quite nicely for many as a live solution. It's not just for the studio. I have to believe that the inability to dial in authentic guitar tone on an FRFR rig isn't the fault of the rig (or the concept), but the user.
 
What's the difference between reference monitors and FRFR speakers, aside from where they're meant to be positioned?
 
Joost Assink said:
I use power amp sims on all my presets with various amounts of SAG. Is that what you meant? Btw, if you want to take care of fan noise, look at the Papst 8880N fan. Only 18db but doesn't push as much air as the regular fan. I'm ok with that though. Even after two hours it's only warm to the touch
Click to expand...

Yes, I also use it with SAG=2.0 in my main presets. The stock fan is a bit annoying, but I can't find that Papst here in Italy, any alternatives?
 
killo said:
Yes, I also use it with SAG=2.0 in my main presets. The stock fan is a bit annoying, but I can't find that Papst here in Italy, any alternatives?
Click to expand...

No sorry no alternatives. What is sag-2.0? Do you have the sag in all your presets at 2.0?
 
prometh said:
What's the difference between reference monitors and FRFR speakers, aside from where they're meant to be positioned?
Click to expand...

I always thought the difference was merely form factor, and the kind of space they are typically expected to fill with sound (small enclosed recording booths vs. open stages or rehearsal rooms).
 
I just went from Tube Power/Guitar Cab to FRFR. I agree its not 100% but I switched to FRFR for simplicity. For 2 year I used the Tube setup and it sounded great but now a days its all about low stage volume and great house mix, so I figure go with FRFR.

I like the ablility to play low volumes at home, same sound in PA and same sound in in-ears. So the small sacrifice in tone is worth the flexibility.
 
Slate said:
I just went from Tube Power/Guitar Cab to FRFR. I agree its not 100% but I switched to FRFR for simplicity. For 2 year I used the Tube setup and it sounded great but now a days its all about low stage volume and great house mix, so I figure go with FRFR.

I like the ablility to play low volumes at home, same sound in PA and same sound in in-ears. So the small sacrifice in tone is worth the flexibility.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what it comes down to: convenience and consistency versus tone compromise. I felt the difference in tone between the two setups was too significant for my personal taste.
 
Based on what I have learned from the experts on these forums, if you experience a "tone compromise" between FRFR and a tube amp, then:

  • You are not setting up your Axe-FX properly. You will probably need to involve yourself in mixed IR files (combining near and far field IRs), adjusting parameters like speaker resonance frequency, and strategically placed PEQ blocks.
  • You are probably using only mediocre (at best) FRFR monitor(s).
Solving the first problem requires a lot of rather deep knowledge of the Axe-FX, and solving the second requires a lot of money. The truth is that the actual compromise is not in the Axe-FX (i.e., its ability to deliver authentic tube tone), but in one's committment to setting up FRFR properly.
 
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