AX8 vs. Helix: On-The-Fly Programming.

dank

dank

Inspired
Hello, all:

PLEASE: No bashing, no fanboism and if you have no true experience with these units, do not express an opinion. That may sound rather harsh, but I am making a serious inquiry, and I don't care for Monday morning quarterbacks. Further, this post does not require any discussion of the units' respective tones. In addition, I am not concerned with routing capabilities. I have a full understanding of that and know what I need in that regard. I am inquiring about programming from the unit's on-board panel, only. With that being said...

I have had the benefit of using the AXE FX II and MFC-101 for the past six years. It has been my main stage rig. I sold over a dozen tube amps and dozens of pedals. I was very pleased with my tone from the axe, along with my RCF monitor. I programmed the Axe almost exclusively from the front panel. I never cared for connecting a laptop to make patch edits. This method worked for me.

I sold the Axe system and bought the AX8. My reason for doing so was to consolidate everything, including an expression pedal or two and a wireless onto one pedal train board. Less carrying and set up.

I have found the AX8 to be rather unintuitive in programming patches. I will admit that it is easier when I use a laptop and edit via AX8 Edit software. Unfortunately, that is not how I care to work when creating patches.

So, I come to those of you who have worked with one or both units to learn about the differences in on-the fly-programing. I cannot get ahold of the Helix, but my limited knowledge of its operation seems to be that it is very easy to create patches and organize those patches for live use.

Thank you very much for your time.

Dan
 
may i ask what was unintuitive about the AX8 vs the Axe-Fx? it would help people give their opinion about the Helix if we're all on equal ground with how we adjust the AX8.
 
I would start with creating the string of blocks for a patch, including blocks that are active and those that are not. In addition, I had a helluva time figuring out how to set up the footswitches similar to the way I had them configured on the MFC-101-I had used the bottom row of switches to change presets. The other switches controlled the on/off status of individual blocks within a preset. I accept that with this configuration, I am limited to four switches, only, to control effects, i.e., Drive, Chorus, Delay and Reverb.
 
I've had a Helix since Oct/Nov last year. I just got my AX8. Here's my take so far:

AX8 pros:
  • I like the size of the AX8 much better (Helix way too long, won't even fit on my huge desk)
  • I like the weight of the AX8 much better (Helix pretty heavy, 20 lbs)
  • I like the sound of the AX8 much better (Helix can be harsh, ice pick type sound)
  • I like AX8 Edit much better than Helix Editor (in beta)
  • More amp models (Helix just gettting started - Fractal been growing their list for years)
  • More cabs (Helix cabs didn't do much for me - used Ownhammer IR's mainly which sounded way better)
  • Deeper Modeling (Helix can only model like up to 12 or so components - heard Paul mention in one of the videos)
  • Better routing (Helix only has main path and 1 alt - then loop to lower and 1 alt)
  • More effects and variations of effects (you have tons of different types of Choruses for example - and the Reverbs..oh the Reverbs!)
  • In general the effects sound better to me
  • Scenes
  • X/Y states for blocks
Helix pros:
  • Sounds and feels better than prior Line 6 products
  • Big color display
  • Attractive interface
  • Easy to program
  • Can handle multiple inputs (I never used it)
  • MIDI is a breeze (I never used it)
  • More Amps/Cabs/Effects in a single patch (doesn't matter to me I use one amp one cab all the time anyway)
  • Included expression pedal
  • Can be an audio interface
All just my opinion but as soon as I hooked up my AX8 I was amazed. I literally just sold my Helix on eBay like 2 min ago. I had a good run with it. Sold it for exactly what I paid new back before Christmas.

Just try it for yourself if you can. Tone is so subjective but at the end of the day to me the AX8 is the clear winner in the tone category.
 
As I indicated in my original post, my main concern is ease of editing. I am well versed with Fractal products in terms of sound quality, number of amps, great effects, etc. I question whether at some point the law of diminishing returns comes into play. I am of the opinion that the people dancing on the floor couldn't tell whether I am running my guitar through a Fender Twin, an AX8 or a Helix. I am a very solid rhythm and lead guitarist and do well with the type of music my band plays. I choose to devote more time to learning songs than editing patches.That's just me. I accept that I will have to buy a Helix and see if it works better for my purposes.
 
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I found the ax8 difficult to edit at first until I just sat on the floor with it for about an hour. I forced myself to modify years old axefx habits and refused to do any work in ax8 edit until I had the front panel down. It's pretty easy now. I however have little need to tweak at a gig but treat ax8 like a amp cab and pedal chain.

My reasoning for not tweaking preset is I found a tone I like and stick with it for every song. This way I have my tone not someone else's tone.
 
I agree with you about the audience not being able to tell what rig you are playing. We where in Indy last night to see a big name act. These guys had the big pedalboard analog rigs and sounded good but, they could have had an axefx or helix and no one would have known the difference because it was all mic'd up and eq'd to sound fantastic. We are not hearing the raw tube arms anyway but a recreation of them.
 
dank said:
As I indicated in my originalpost, my main concern is ease of editing. I am well versed with Fractal products in terms of sound quality, number of amps, great effects, etc. I question whether at some point the law of diminishing returns comes into play. I am of the opinion that the people dancing on the floor couldn't tell whether I am running my guitar through a Fender Twin, an AX8 or a Helix. I am a very solid rhythm and lead guitarist and do well with the type of music my band plays. I choose to devote more time to learning songs than editing patches.That's just me. I accept that I will have to buy a Helix and see if it works better for my purposes.
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my opinion is that the time you would spend buying and learning a Helix can be better spent just learning the AX8 a bit better, since you already have all the difficult stuff down with your Axe experience. make sure you use the D and E knobs on the Layout screen. i usually always have right hand on the E knob and left hand on the A knob when editing. it's pretty fast once you get over the absence of the Nav arrows from the Axe. i'm not trying to keep you from buying or trying anything else, but i think you really have the hard part down.

i tried a Helix in store. i did not understand the interface and menus at all. i didn't like knobs and buttons. many internal things i didn't like either, as far as ease of use and adaptability to different gigs.
 
Thanks so much for everyone's input so far. I really appreciate. Most likely, I will buy a Helix and work with both units to see which is a better fit for me. The Fractal Products have served me well, and I have no plans to abandon them.
 
With like anything if you spend time with it it will be easier to work with. I owned a Helix for a few weeks and I found it rather easy to work with. I didn't get very deep with it but I didn't need to. It's another tool and just like any tool you have to understand how to use it.
 
I would just like to add a small thought... I thought the AX8 was a bit more "unintuitive" for programming and tweaking since I have had an AFX since they came out with the first unit. Then, I really challenged myself to give the AX8 a try... an honest try.

I found the first week or so to be a bit frustrating and in some ways disappointing. But, I think I have finally gotten the hang of the AX8. It is a different animal and I was wrong to compare it to the AFX. It takes time to learn and navigation is now second nature and in fact, I can dial in sounds quicker now than with the AFX2.

Perhaps you have not given your AX8 enough time yet to really get to know it?
 
I like the Helix a lot. It's really a tremendous unit, sounds great, and has an extremely easy interface. I've always believed that ease of use helps a guitarist play more and dial in less, and in this regard the Helix kinda rules.
I've only toyed around with the Ax8 and am no authority, but the biggest drawback I've seen so far is that it seems to demand a ton of cpu. Combining amps has been the thing I like most about the AxefxII and the Ax8 doesn't allow this... Deal breaker for me personally.
 
Tailstop said:
I like the Helix a lot. It's really a tremendous unit, sounds great, and has an extremely easy interface. I've always believed that ease of use helps a guitarist play more and dial in less, and in this regard the Helix kinda rules.
I've only toyed around with the Ax8 and am no authority, but the biggest drawback I've seen so far is that it seems to demand a ton of cpu. Combining amps has been the thing I like most about the AxefxII and the Ax8 doesn't allow this... Deal breaker for me personally.
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It is really good. If you gotta have 2 amps then the answer is indeed clear.

For me I'd rather have 1 sonicly superior than 2 inferior. I used the Helix for months and I don't find the AX8 difficult - you just have to focus on the top areas mainly. The difference is the deep dive stuff is there if you need it - I like that. It will take me longer to learn overall but I like that too - I was already bored with the Helix it was so easy. Also on the Helix though you can do a lot, adding more and more didn't really improve things for me. I think less is more.

Two amps would be nice for certain situations though - at some point Fractal will put a full featured AxeFx in a floor unit for those who need even more power, 2 amps, etc but I'm happy with what I have for now.
 
Nimbas said:
I've had a Helix since Oct/Nov last year. I just got my AX8. Here's my take so far:

AX8 pros:
  • I like the size of the AX8 much better (Helix way too long, won't even fit on my huge desk)
  • I like the weight of the AX8 much better (Helix pretty heavy, 20 lbs)
  • I like the sound of the AX8 much better (Helix can be harsh, ice pick type sound)
  • I like AX8 Edit much better than Helix Editor (in beta)
  • More amp models (Helix just gettting started - Fractal been growing their list for years)
  • More cabs (Helix cabs didn't do much for me - used Ownhammer IR's mainly which sounded way better)
  • Deeper Modeling (Helix can only model like up to 12 or so components - heard Paul mention in one of the videos)
  • Better routing (Helix only has main path and 1 alt - then loop to lower and 1 alt)
  • More effects and variations of effects (you have tons of different types of Choruses for example - and the Reverbs..oh the Reverbs!)
  • In general the effects sound better to me
  • Scenes
  • X/Y states for blocks
Helix pros:
  • Sounds and feels better than prior Line 6 products
  • Big color display
  • Attractive interface
  • Easy to program
  • Can handle multiple inputs (I never used it)
  • MIDI is a breeze (I never used it)
  • More Amps/Cabs/Effects in a single patch (doesn't matter to me I use one amp one cab all the time anyway)
  • Included expression pedal
  • Can be an audio interface
All just my opinion but as soon as I hooked up my AX8 I was amazed. I literally just sold my Helix on eBay like 2 min ago. I had a good run with it. Sold it for exactly what I paid new back before Christmas.

Just try it for yourself if you can. Tone is so subjective but at the end of the day to me the AX8 is the clear winner in the tone category.
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This post cracks me up. He said no fanboi bs. The Helix was too big because it didn't fit on your desk? It's made to sit on the floor. Like the AX8. Add a Mission or Fractal expression pedal to the AX8. What's your size difference now? ???

Your Helix weighed 20 pounds? Did you fill it with something? 14.6 lbs is not 20. Add a Mission or Fractal expression pedal to an AX8. How close are they now?

Etc...


With regard to the OP's original question, I personally find the on unit creation capabilities on the Helix to be much easier to use and more intuitive. BUT, the interface on the AX8 is useable. Just take the time to learn to use it.

I'll leave the rest of the opinions out of this.
 
I gig too and don't have the time to tweak and tweak, came to the AX8 from the AxeII, though I've not used the Helix, I'd suggest you spend $40 on Fremen's preset pack (over 400 killer presets) you will find more workable/usable tones in that pack than you will ever need. Many are already dialed for 5 scenes..audition, make note of those that may be useful, tweak to taste, save, done.
 
I only tried Helix 30 minutes at a Guitar Show.

I found that it was very easy to dial up a preset. The layout is fairly intuitive, and the big color screen really helps. But it is also a simpler unit than Ax8. You have way less control of your amp settings with Helix. A simpler unit makes for a simpler user interface.

On the other hand, I think, it is very simple to make a great sounding preset in Ax8 - I only have to add an amp and a cab that I like - then it sounds great with no tweaks. I did not have that experience with Helix. I did not manage to set up any patch with just amp and cab that sounded good (but I was trying it under less than perfect conditions). However, the Helix does have a Klon OD block, and when you add that to most amps, it makes everything sound better.

Returning to the Ax8 interface that I have a much better grasp on. I think it works. I usually set up my patches using Ax8edit (which is really fast and intuitive for me), but I will edit and tweak the patches on the unit at rehearsals. It works, I find that it is quite easy and fast to get to a block and edit the parameters I need. The one thing I miss, when I edit patches on the unit is the overview. The screen does not show the full 4x12 layout in one screen, and it is difficult to see, which blocks are in x- or y-states. It helps, if blocks are asigned to a foot pedal (if you can remember which one). Setting up a five scene patch on the unit with lots of blocks that needs to be in specific x/y states and on/off and maybe even using scene controllers without error would be a daunting task for sure. I would loose my overview on what was on and off and in which state in the different scenes. But then again, Helix has neither x/y switching nor scenes. It is a simpler unit with a simpler interface. But if only Ax8 had a bigger screen that showed color, I think the user interface could be just as easy as the Helix one.
 
DavidE said:
This post cracks me up. He said no fanboi bs. The Helix was too big because it didn't fit on your desk? It's made to sit on the floor. Like the AX8. Add a Mission or Fractal expression pedal to the AX8. What's your size difference now? ???

Your Helix weighed 20 pounds? Did you fill it with something? 14.6 lbs is not 20. Add a Mission or Fractal expression pedal to an AX8. How close are they now?

Etc...


With regard to the OP's original question, I personally find the on unit creation capabilities on the Helix to be much easier to use and more intuitive. BUT, the interface on the AX8 is useable. Just take the time to learn to use it.

I'll leave the rest of the opinions out of this.
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Glad I could amuse you. It's amazing how you try to get on here to chat and have fun with fellow users about products you are excited about - state your own personal likes and remain pretty positive about both units and someone still has to hate on you.

You are correct the weight it 14.6 I was mistaken - still very heavy and heavier than any other floor pedal I've ever had.

The size of the AX8 is much better to me. It does fit on my desk better. I like to have it on my desk when I am using it at home and programming.

The Helix can't sit on the floor if I am programming it constantly because I don't want to bend over the whole time and an editor didn't exist until a week or so ago. I play through studio monitors hence, desk.

I don't have an expression pedal. Even if I did I would prefer them being separate not build together in one unit like the Helix. Getting an expression pedal doesn't increase the weight of the AX8 - it only increases the weight of the two together in a bag.

Everything I stated was my likes, my opinions. It was presented in a very friendly fashion. If you have a problem with that then well, that's your problem.
 
I'm a fractal noob and the AX8 is my first fractal product. I've had all the mass market modelers coming from Boss, Zoom, Digitech, and Line 6. Been gigging with the Line 6 HD500x for years now and I thought that was complicated. It was complicated not because it is not user friendly but it was hard to get a great sound on the fly.

The Helix is in a different ballgame because of that interface and the better amp models. Three clicks and you got a sound you can gig with.

Getting the AX8 was daunting for me since it was my first time. I got the beginners video from Axe Fx tutorials and that helped me immensely. Now, I don't think it's even hard to get around the unit at all. Sure, I could have used a navi pad instead of the navi knobs. But I think it is fairly easy to use on stage. I try to learn to tweak as much as possible on the unit and not depend on AX8 Edit because the AX8 is meant to be used onstage. And I find it great because you can get a great sound on the fly without tweaking the deep parameters.

And I LOVE the Gameboy screen too. It is kinda charming. :)
 
Nimbas said:
Glad I could amuse you. It's amazing how you try to get on here to chat and have fun with fellow users about products you are excited about - state your own personal likes and remain pretty positive about both units and someone still has to hate on you.

You are correct the weight it 14.6 I was mistaken - still very heavy and heavier than any other floor pedal I've ever had.

The size of the AX8 is much better to me. It does fit on my desk better. I like to have it on my desk when I am using it at home and programming.

The Helix can't sit on the floor if I am programming it constantly because I don't want to bend over the whole time and an editor didn't exist until a week or so ago. I play through studio monitors hence, desk.

I don't have an expression pedal. Even if I did I would prefer them being separate not build together in one unit like the Helix. Getting an expression pedal doesn't increase the weight of the AX8 - it only increases the weight of the two together in a bag.

Everything I stated was my likes, my opinions. It was presented in a very friendly fashion. If you have a problem with that then well, that's your problem.
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My point being that the OP specifically stated what he did NOT want discussed in his thread, yet you did it anyway. And then posted false information about something as objective as the weight of the Helix. Still, that had NOTHING to do with his question. Why people want to throw in the extraneous stuff no matter what, even though it's been written about on the board ad nauseam. The size of the units wasn't relevant, the tones, the number of models and on and on. None of it was relevant. Some of it was fanboi stuff he specifically stated he didn't want. AND ULTIMATELY YOU DIDN'T ANSWER HIS QUESTION AT ALL! THAT's what I don't get. That's my problem.

How hard is it to respect this request?:

"PLEASE: No bashing, no fanboism and if you have no true experience with these units, do not express an opinion. That may sound rather harsh, but I am making a serious inquiry, and I don't care for Monday morning quarterbacks. Further, this post does not require any discussion of the units' respective tones. In addition, I am not concerned with routing capabilities. I have a full understanding of that and know what I need in that regard. I am inquiring about programming from the unit's on-board panel, only. With that being said.."
 
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