AX8 vs Helix: Amp Tone and Effects

Sixstring said:
That thing reminds me of my Road King days...
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It IS up there as far as tweak ability goes, but steeped deep in a different
tonal palette than Boogie (which was personally never my thing).
Here's a short cap:
Channels:
1.) Clean: D-style (as apparent from the layout), but with this incredibly powerful and dynamic power stage it's even more dynamic than a D. Also different boost-circuit etc.
2.) Plexi-style. Has the Plexi type tone stack, but the channel is vastly refined, and can deliver a clean that is even better than a bassman-type F-style in terms of dynamics, incredible clean in its own right (and of course also delivers all the Plexi goodness you'd want, but more
3 & 4.) Marzian III: Identical channels, with gain and pregain and boost circuits it's really a three channel kinda setup alone. Think Cameron/Friedman on steroids, but capable of ten times that if you want (even to all out meshuggah territory, tighter than a rats ass!).

All the gain stages has three modes (various gain structures and highend response), and the Depth/Presence also has voicing switches. The boost circuits has three modes, gain/volume/both-boost, and is located in parallell after the preamp not to mess with the responsiveness of the tone or add "fizz".

Then comes fat switch, damping, pentode/triode, 100%-50%-25% effect, mix any tubes int he power stage (I will use 6L6 and EL34 at the same time). All midi controllable.

This is an exceptionally versatile monster, more so than any amp I've ever tried.

PS. Here's a short phone clip of me trying out the two-channel prototype last Easter at a gig up in the Scandinavian alps. Clean is all the plexi channel, gain the marzian (this proto didn't have the Dumble).





There, sorry for hogging the thread. My Helix will arrive tomorrow, I'll chip in on tone, both on that and how it performs with the amp in 4CM
 
atquinn said:
It's ridiculous comments like this that make people dislike Fractal Audio.
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Which is in itself ridiculous because Fractal Audio didn't make that comment, right? :)

atquinn said:
I agree. But if the community that endorses/supports a product is full of dicks (and, no, I'm not saying that that describes Fractal), then it can turn prospective buyers away from that product. Especially when the product in question is a luxury/prestige item. This is hardly a new/novel phenomenon.
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The internet is full of dicks. Learning how to avoid them is a good skill to acquire.
 
Richard Lainegard said:
It IS up there as far as tweak ability goes, but steeped deep in a different
tonal palette than Boogie (which was personally never my thing).
Here's a short cap:
Channels:
1.) Clean: D-style (as apparent from the layout), but with this incredibly powerful and dynamic power stage it's even more dynamic than a D. Also different boost-circuit etc.
2.) Plexi-style. Has the Plexi type tone stack, but the channel is vastly refined, and can deliver a clean that is even better than a bassman-type F-style in terms of dynamics, incredible clean in its own right (and of course also delivers all the Plexi goodness you'd want, but more
3 & 4.) Marzian III: Identical channels, with gain and pregain and boost circuits it's really a three channel kinda setup alone. Think Cameron/Friedman on steroids, but capable of ten times that if you want (even to all out meshuggah territory, tighter than a rats ass!).

All the gain stages has three modes (various gain structures and highend response), and the Depth/Presence also has voicing switches. The boost circuits has three modes, gain/volume/both-boost, and is located in parallell after the preamp not to mess with the responsiveness of the tone or add "fizz".

Then comes fat switch, damping, pentode/triode, 100%-50%-25% effect, mix any tubes int he power stage (I will use 6L6 and EL34 at the same time). All midi controllable.

This is an exceptionally versatile monster, more so than any amp I've ever tried.

PS. Here's a short phone clip of me trying out the two-channel prototype last Easter at a gig up in the Scandinavian alps. Clean is all the plexi channel, gain the marzian (this proto didn't have the Dumble).





There, sorry for hogging the thread. My Helix will arrive tomorrow, I'll chip in on tone, both on that and how it performs with the amp in 4CM
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Great playing through a great sounding amp!
-
Austin
 
iaresee said:
Which is in itself ridiculous because Fractal Audio didn't make that comment, right? :)


The internet is full of dicks. Learning how to avoid them is a good skill to acquire.
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If the only place you have to worry about avoiding dicks is on the Internet, congratulations on your awesome life! My dick-avoidance skills were well-honed long before the Internet came along :D
-
Austin
 
atquinn said:
If the only place you have to worry about avoid dick is on the Internet, congratulations on your awesome life! My dick-avoidance skills were well-honede long before the Internet came along :D
-
Austin
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Lol, black belt in "don't drop the soap-jitsu"
 
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atquinn said:
If the only place you have to worry about avoid dick is on the Internet, congratulations on your awesome life! My dick-avoidance skills were well-honede long before the Internet came along :D
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I feel like this isn't true for a large portion of the population that has Found The Internet. They're surprised when the world is...harsh. :)
 
mikah912 said:
Hey, I know where I am. It's cool. I'm on the wait list anyway.
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Wait a second. Are you not the guy who posted on TGP in all these similar threads always using that line "well I am on the wait list" anytime people called you out for your embellishing L6 and pissing on Fractal comments? Furthermore, are you not the very same guy who said he thought the way Fractal was handling the launch was in bad form or bad taste because they put a few people on the list prior to the lists creation and offered up your position to anyone who wanted it which was in essence doing the very same thing you were condemning FAS for?

So now you have changed your tune again and are back to the "I'm on the waitlist" replies as if it justifies or excuses your bias whenever someone points it out?

o964F8H.gif
 
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mikah912 said:
As a dad who coaches his two young sons in sports, you'll get no argument from me. I detest "participation medals".

But that doesn't relate to what I'm saying. Asking what's a "better sounding" unit is like asking what's the best guitar tone of all time or what's the "best" amp model in the latest Quantum firmware: Plenty of people will have a different answer than you, but how exactly are they wrong?
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Better sounding is kind of a generalized way of asking about the unit. Unfortunately this typically leads to circuitous discussions. I think that with modelers the real question is the accuracy of the reproduction.
It's not really whether someone can get a generalized good tone.

If someone is digitally modeling guitars then it's fairly obvious that sounding like the actual instrument being modeled is the litmus test, not whether or not someone can get a good tone out of the device. I believe this holds true for amp and effect modeling.

Whether or not a particular individual can distinguish the difference in the accuracy is a separate question.

Imo the Fractal modeling is more detailed and accurate in the reproduction of the actual sounds. I'm sure there's multiple reasons, but i think one of the major one's might be the lack of discernible aliasing. A lot of the harshness that people hear in other modelers comes from ineffective anti-aliasing. I've heard lots of interesting euphemisms for this, but to me it's not a result of accurately recreating the less desirable tonal aspects of analog devices.

However tonal preference is subjective.....
 
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cobbler said:
Wait a second. Are you not the guy who posted on TGP in all these similar threads always using that line "well I am on the wait list" anytime people called you out for your embellishing L6 and pissing on Fractal comments? Furthermore, are you not the very same guy who said he thought the way Fractal was handling the launch was in bad form or bad taste because they put a few people on the list prior to the lists creation and offered up your position to anyone who wanted it which was in essence doing the very same thing you were condemning FAS for?

So now you have changed your tune again and are back to the "I'm on the waitlist" replies as if it justifies or excuses your bias whenever someone points it out?

o964F8H.gif
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You thinking I "embellish" Line 6 and "piss" on Fractal throws your lack of reading comprehension into stark relief.

I did and do think the way Fractal handled the launch was in bad taste. I did offer up my spot, but later found out it was non-transferable. I do not think a waitlist confirmation of 11PM will get me an invitation any time during the first half of the year, so it's immaterial anyway. Sometime later in 2016 when I'm far divorced from this launch mania and $1000 markup items being resold on eBay, I might very well buy it. But then again, as I stated on TGP, I could very well buy a Axe II in the interim....or a Kemper...or an Ultra...or a Helix. I don't pretend to know which way the next 6 months will take me gearwise. I may be bowled over by something at NAMM. Who knows?

They're ALL great units. Shame you think that's contradictory or anti-Fractal. But yet again...I know where I am posting this. :)
 
Gearzilla said:
Better sounding is kind of a generalized way of asking about the unit. Unfortunately this typically leads to circuitous discussions. I think that with modelers the real question is the accuracy of the reproduction.
It's not really whether someone can get a generalized good tone.

If someone is digitally modeling guitars then it's fairly obvious that sounding like the actual instrument being modeled is the litmus test, not whether or not someone can get a good tone out of the device. I believe this holds true for amp and effect modeling.

Whether or not a particular individual can distinguish the difference in the accuracy is a separate question.

Imo the Fractal modeling is more detailed and accurate in the reproduction of the actual sounds. I'm sure there's multiple reasons, but i think one of the major one's might be the lack of discernible aliasing. A lot of the harshness that people hear in other modelers comes from ineffective anti-aliasing. I've heard lots of interesting euphemisms for this, but to me it's not a result of accurately recreating the less desirable tonal aspects of analog devices.

However tonal preference is subjective.....
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Some great points here. What's more accurate is always a tricky area for me. Not because I want to cop out and say that "none of them" are. I'm sure there are objective degrees of that which are inarguable and measurable the same way that a high-resolution IR from Ownhammer is absolutely more realistic and accurate than a comb filter of the same cab/mic combo on, say, a Boss GT-100. There's simply more information and detail there.

But when we talk about Axe or Kemper vs. Helix, there are so many points of accuracy in the signal chain. When someone on TGP made a Helix vs Kemper thread, there were stark model-for-model differences when each unit's default cab simulation was used. But when he made IRs of the Kemper cabs, the distance closed greatly. What was left could've easily been explained as it being a differently aged Blackface or Recto between the two. Or the ones that Kemper or Line 6 modeled had slightly different tubes than the other. Or one was biased slightly different.

Similarly, Fractal having many proprietary IRs in its stock image would make it tricky to make a 1:1 comparison on what's more "realistic". Certainly, you can try to compare "pick response" or "note bloom" or "Volume knob response", but I've seen people vehemently disagree on those things on the same unit, much less comparing between two units.

If the chief determinant is what has less digital artifacts, it would appear from early reports that Fractal is well ahead of Helix in that regard given the number of people who take issue with "crossover distortion"-type sounds that they perceive in some Helix models. I personally don't really hear it except when it was isolated in a way that I would never listen to a guitar tone. But that doesn't mean it';s not there or that those people are wrong.

I think Fractal being a way more mature and developed platform is always going to be a big advantage in quality and breadth of tone. Having the treasure chest of stock IRs is a big win too. Line 6's having nothing but a relatively limited homemade IR selection was always a bad idea on Helix, and I've never been shy about saying so. With work put in (i.e. hunting down and auditioning third party IRs), the gap might be negligible. But the more people pay for a unit, the less they want to work to achieve tonal nirvana.
 
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