Automatic Double Tracking With The Ax8

[lwknives]

You can do this with a stereo cab block and a delay!


After the amp block put in a stereo cab block. Hard pan each cab left and right.
After the cab put a delay in parallel and set its input mode to left only, its mix to 100%, balance to 100% left and put the delay time somewhere between 15ms and 30ms.


This will give you a big stereo image and sound a lot like double tracking.
If you want it to sound more like two different amps you can put an EQ or compressor in the parrallel path with the delay. Another thing that helps it sound more realistic is to add a small amount of modulation to the delay.
Also, try using diferent cab combinations.

 

[Axeman75]

Sounds like something I need to try. I don't have my AX8 just yet. Can you post a demo?

Thanks.

 

[atquinn]

You can do this with a stereo cab block and a delay!


After the amp block put in a stereo cab block. Hard pan each cab left and right.
After the cab put a delay in parallel and set its input mode to left only, its mix to 100%, balance to 100% left and put the delay time somewhere between 15ms and 30ms.


This will give you a big stereo image and sound a lot like double tracking.
If you want it to sound more like two different amps you can put an EQ or compressor in the parrallel path with the delay. Another thing that helps it sound more realistic is to add a small amount of modulation to the delay.
Also, try using diferent cab combinations.

I'll have to double-check tonight, but I'm almost positive that, like the rack units, the Cab block on the AX8 already has a Delay parameter when you are running stereo cabs. So you can do what you're describing without using up the delay block.
-
Austin

 

[lwknives]

Sounds like something I need to try. I don't have my AX8 just yet. Can you post a demo?

Thanks.

It's hard for me to do much more than text because my computer has very limited internet capabilities, I do almost everything with my phone. I'll see what I can do.

 

[lwknives]

I'll have to double-check tonight, but I'm almost positive that, like the rack units, the Cab block on the AX8 already has a Delay parameter when you are running stereo cabs. So you can do what you're describing without using up the delay block.
-
Austin

It does, I think, but it has a max time of 1ms you need more like 20ms to get a double tracked sound.

 

[jiagap]

Great post, I was hoping this would be possible. I used to do the 2 amps panned left and right with slight delay on one side. Provided a very sweet full sounding stereo patch. With the AX8 I was presuming something similar could be achieved using stereo cabs and delay. Thanks for the post. Still on the waiting list awaiting the day when I can do it for reals!!!!!!!

 

[DavidE]

Can you assign a controller to randomly, but smoothly change the delay time? A constant 20ms may sound mechanical while a delayed signal that varied between, say, 15ms and 25ms (picked out of thin air, so maybe a narrower range) might sound more like two takes or two players?

 

[brokenvail]

I don't an ax8 yet but based on what I know and what you describe I don't see any reason why that is not possible

 

[lwknives]

Can you assign a controller to randomly, but smoothly change the delay time? A constant 20ms may sound mechanical while a delayed signal that varied between, say, 15ms and 25ms (picked out of thin air, so maybe a narrower range) might sound more like two takes or two players?

I haven't found a way to do this because the pitch changes when you change delay time. Even a slow sweep between 20 and 25 ms sounds like a chorus. I'm sure there is a way but I haven't been able to make it work. You would have to add modulation out of phase with the delay to counteract the pitch change and I wasn't able to make it work. The problem is that you want the attack time to change but you don't want the time to change as the note rings out.


It doesn't sound exactly like double tracking but in a live setting it accomplishes the same thing.

 

[atquinn]

It does, I think, but it has a max time of 1ms you need more like 20ms to get a double tracked sound.

Ah, I see. Got it.
-
Austin

 

[Feflicker]

I am in the habit of always placing a 30ms delay after my cab to make it sound more "real" like a tube amp. Is there an option in the AMP block to simulate this so I can pull that delay out and save the DSP resources?

 

[lwknives]

I am in the habit of always placing a 30ms delay after my cab to make it sound more "real" like a tube amp. Is there an option in the AMP block to simulate this so I can pull that delay out and save the DSP resources?

If you want delay over 1ms you have to use a block with delay. You might be able to get a few CPU pints by using a multi delay.

How are you setting up the delay?

 

[Feflicker]

If you want delay over 1ms you have to use a block with delay. You might be able to get a few CPU pints by using a multi delay.

How are you setting up the delay?

I use the basic digital delay right now, on normal.

What I am asking is if there is an amp block parameter to achieve this same tonal quality of having some tube compression and a smoother release, without it being "delay" per-say.

 

[atquinn]

I use the basic digital delay right now, on normal.

What I am asking is if there is an amp block parameter to achieve this same tonal quality of having some tube compression and a smoother release, without it being "delay" per-say.

I'm going to go with yes, since there are lik 80 different Amp block parameters
-
Austin

 

[lwknives]

My experience has been that the amps already have that! I just pull up an amp and adjust the basic controls that are on the real amp.
What volume are you playing at? You might be missing the natural reverb and guitar feedback you get from a tube amp in its sweet spot. You can simulate this somewhat with a compressor and a reverb. Or turn it up insanely loud!
Getting into deep parameters is not really required any more to get "real" tube tone.
Could you describe how you are setting up your delay? Mix, feedback ect.

 

[Admin M@]

I've actually got a pseudo dual amp preset with doubler effect in the AX8 Bank I'm working on

 

[LostInSpace]

It would be very cool if some effects genius (paging Cliff ) were to develop an effect algorithm specifically for this purpose. It seems like a realistic doubling effect that doesn't have a "chorus" quality would need to impart a small constant delay that changes every time a pick strike or note change occurs.

 

[Feflicker]

My experience has been that the amps already have that! I just pull up an amp and adjust the basic controls that are on the real amp.
What volume are you playing at? You might be missing the natural reverb and guitar feedback you get from a tube amp in its sweet spot. You can simulate this somewhat with a compressor and a reverb. Or turn it up insanely loud!
Getting into deep parameters is not really required any more to get "real" tube tone.
Could you describe how you are setting up your delay? Mix, feedback ect.

Not my experience. If I hard stop a note, unless I have reverb or delay on it cuts IMMEDIATELY. There is no natural release that my tube amps have. I have not changed any of the amp params other than the front basic controls.

I run direct into a Yamaha DXR10, XLR and I build patches at stage volume.

 

[lwknives]

Not my experience. If I hard stop a note, unless I have reverb or delay on it cuts IMMEDIATELY. There is no natural release that my tube amps have. I have not changed any of the amp params other than the front basic controls.

I run direct into a Yamaha DXR10, XLR and I build patches at stage volume.

Huh, I've not experienced that with tube amps. Maybe I just wasn't listening for it. Maybe it is cab resonance... Any chance you could record an example of what you are hearing?
Something that might be worth trying, point your speaker away from you and see if it sounds more like you are wanting it to. You may be used to hearing your cab blast past your knees and bouncing off a wall. With your Yamaha you are getting a more direct signal because it has a wider dispersion than guitar cabs. Most guitar players are used to hearing their speakers off axis and bouncing around the room.

Could you give some details on how your setting up your delay?

 

[Feflicker]

Huh, I've not experienced that with tube amps. Maybe I just wasn't listening for it. Maybe it is cab resonance... Any chance you could record an example of what you are hearing?
Something that might be worth trying, point your speaker away from you and see if it sounds more like you are wanting it to. You may be used to hearing your cab blast past your knees and bouncing off a wall. With your Yamaha you are getting a more direct signal because it has a wider dispersion than guitar cabs. Most guitar players are used to hearing their speakers off axis and bouncing around the room.

Could you give some details on how your setting up your delay?

Its just a mono digital delay with very low mix (5%?), a short duration (30-40ms), and short feedback. I thought everyone did this to simulate real tube amps with these modelers You get a less harsh cut in the sound when you choke a note, like a real tube amp does when the power tubes are being pushed. Tubes don't just CUT like solid state devices do.