Wish Auto Speaker Thump

[State of Epicicity]

Since we now know a Cab Block parameter (like DynaCab type) can be linked to an Amp Block parameter (like Speaker Impedance Curve type), I think the last link for full realism would be to auto calculate Speaker Thump in similar fashion. Right now, to simulate the real world value, you need to find the wattage of the amp, the wattage of the speaker cabinet, divide the amp wattage by the cab wattage, and multiply that by 5 (that formula is my conjecture, by the way), but that seems like it could be programmed to be automatic.

Now I realize that there are amp / cab combinations that would be a real problem in the real world, like a high wattage amp going into a tiny wattage cab, but perhaps there could be mitigations for that kind of thing, if necessary.

Thanks in advance for considering this!

 

[giantslayer]

I was about to post the same thing on the wishlist, then I saw this one. Automating the speaker settings would make it much easier for the “average Joe” to get authentic tones.

I’m thinking this could be expanded beyond just speaker thump: maybe compression and drive values could be approximated with a similar approach. Time constant or compliance might be less variable with the head and might just be a default value for each dynacab.

 

[ApocalypticKatana]

maybe have an option in axe edit where you choose from a selection of common wattages or even better to input a specific wattage of the speaker/cabinet and it’ll calculate for you

(roundabout way of adjusting the parameter but more accurate, I guess)

Though saying this I heard that marshalls and probably other amp brands are drawing in more than rated sometimes so it’ll affect the thump value (ideal vs authentic scenario again ) (also variables in the speaker)

 

[State of Epicicity]

I'd like to make a slightly altered request regarding Speaker Thump if an Auto setting is not something you'd want to include, to have a global Speaker Thump. Especially for Legacy IRs, this would be helpful in the way that we have the global Speaker Impedance Curve setting. When the Speaker Thump parameter was first introduced, I really couldn't hear it, but I absolutely hear it now, and I find it very powerful in shaping the feel of a cab just shaking the earth. It's an awesome parameter. And if it were possible to change it to a global setting, I think it would make tone setting that much easier. Thank you as always for considering.

And Happy Holidays!

 

[zafreemusic]

I would love to see this for All the speaker controls, as right now most of the other settings are set to the amps real values and if you want to make changes then that's up to you. The speaker controls are more set them how you wish/feel, and sometimes its not the easiest thing to dial in (especially speaker time constant).

However, I don't think it's as simple as the equation you reference. While I do use that equation to get an idea, then adjust from there. I don't believe it is 100% accurate. [I have limited electronic knowledge] The amp wattage and speaker wattage posted online are clean RMS, however we rarely run our amps clean so the wattage could be a lot higher. I've heard "100W" Marshall can blow 4 greenbacks at full blast, so clearly its putting out more than 100W. I imagine that subtle differences in the manufacturing process could alter the wattages as well.

If I am correct about it being clean RMS, then wouldn't running it with less gain then use less wattage? and Therefore, the speaker controls would have to change as you changed the amount gain or added a drive pedal. It would make sense why he hasn't implemented this yet as its much more complicated than we think. Again, I could be totally wrong and I'd love for someone to explain who has the knowledge.

Thanks and sorry for hijacking the thread

 

[State of Epicicity]

I would love to see this for All the speaker controls, as right now most of the other settings are set to the amps real values and if you want to make changes then that's up to you. The speaker controls are more set them how you wish/feel, and sometimes its not the easiest thing to dial in (especially speaker time constant).

However, I don't think it's as simple as the equation you reference. While I do use that equation to get an idea, then adjust from there. I don't believe it is 100% accurate. [I have limited electronic knowledge] The amp wattage and speaker wattage posted online are clean RMS, however we rarely run our amps clean so the wattage could be a lot higher. I've heard "100W" Marshall can blow 4 greenbacks at full blast, so clearly its putting out more than 100W. I imagine that subtle differences in the manufacturing process could alter the wattages as well.

If I am correct about it being clean RMS, then wouldn't running it with less gain then use less wattage? and Therefore, the speaker controls would have to change as you changed the amount gain or added a drive pedal. It would make sense why he hasn't implemented this yet as its much more complicated than we think. Again, I could be totally wrong and I'd love for someone to explain who has the knowledge.

Thanks and sorry for hijacking the thread

Dude, cool thought. I know nothing about this, so I appreciate your rumination about how this might work.

 

[ApocalypticKatana]

I would love to see this for All the speaker controls, as right now most of the other settings are set to the amps real values and if you want to make changes then that's up to you. The speaker controls are more set them how you wish/feel, and sometimes its not the easiest thing to dial in (especially speaker time constant).

However, I don't think it's as simple as the equation you reference. While I do use that equation to get an idea, then adjust from there. I don't believe it is 100% accurate. [I have limited electronic knowledge] The amp wattage and speaker wattage posted online are clean RMS, however we rarely run our amps clean so the wattage could be a lot higher. I've heard "100W" Marshall can blow 4 greenbacks at full blast, so clearly its putting out more than 100W. I imagine that subtle differences in the manufacturing process could alter the wattages as well.

If I am correct about it being clean RMS, then wouldn't running it with less gain then use less wattage? and Therefore, the speaker controls would have to change as you changed the amount gain or added a drive pedal. It would make sense why he hasn't implemented this yet as its much more complicated than we think. Again, I could be totally wrong and I'd love for someone to explain who has the knowledge.

Thanks and sorry for hijacking the thread

That is a good point of view on watt used vs speaker drive , never thought about that!

I’ll assume he already has that implemented but only the man himself may say!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I've heard "100W" Marshall can blow 4 greenbacks at full blast, so clearly its putting out more than 100W.

It's a balancing act. An underpowered amp can blow speakers quickly too because a clipped signal can heat the speaker coils. It's safer for the speakers to have an overpowered amp running cleanly, which is why FOH systems use big amplifiers but don't run them at full power. Of course, pushing 10x the rated power handling through a speaker can destroy it in no time also.

The Speaker Drive section in the Amp Block page in the Wiki seems useful to this thread.

I treat my Amp block settings as if it's a well-maintained vintage or boutique amp and speaker that isn't being abused so I stick close to Cliff's recommendations/defaults. An algorithm could automatically change those for people but it seems to me that the difference in sound and setting would be very subtle, probably something that most people wouldn't notice, and, because they probably also want something similar to the idea of a well-maintained amp+speaker the defaults will work for them too. If they want to make it sound like an amp that is abusing the speaker(s) then increasing the values will get there but I'm not sure what genre would want that regularly except as a very special effect because most people don't really like the sound of an speaker dying. Just my thoughts and maybe I'm that out of touch with the sound of music.

 

[State of Epicicity]

It's a balancing act. An underpowered amp can blow speakers quickly too because a clipped signal can heat the speaker coils. It's safer for the speakers to have an overpowered amp running cleanly, which is why FOH systems use big amplifiers but don't run them at full power. Of course, pushing 10x the rated power handling through a speaker can destroy it in no time also.

The Speaker Drive section in the Amp Block page in the Wiki seems useful to this thread.

I treat my Amp block settings as if it's a well-maintained vintage or boutique amp and speaker that isn't being abused so I stick close to Cliff's recommendations/defaults. An algorithm could automatically change those for people but it seems to me that the difference in sound and setting would be very subtle, probably something that most people wouldn't notice, and, because they probably also want something similar to the idea of a well-maintained amp+speaker the defaults will work for them too. If they want to make it sound like an amp that is abusing the speaker(s) then increasing the values will get there but I'm not sure what genre would want that regularly except as a very special effect because most people don't really like the sound of an speaker dying. Just my thoughts and maybe I'm that out of touch with the sound of music.

This was a really clarifying explanation. I hadn't considered how the relationship between amp and speaker can easily go from fine to precarious. This must be a fundamental misunderstanding on my part of what really is modeled here. I thought it was some inherent electronic relationship that occurs anytime you connect, e.g., a 100W amp to a 100W cab, but, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying it's not that at all, that it's really a function of the the strength of the signal you're pushing at any moment, which of course is a dynamic thing.

I am confused now about what Speaker Thump really is, if the 100W amp into a 100W cab rule doesn't really make sense in the real world.

Thanks for your explanation.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

This was a really clarifying explanation. I hadn't considered how the relationship between amp and speaker can easily go from fine to precarious. This must be a fundamental misunderstanding on my part of what really is modeled here.

I don't know that it's a misunderstanding, it might be that it's not well defined for us laymen. I could be wrong; It's totally conceivable.

I thought it was some inherent electronic relationship that occurs anytime you connect, e.g., a 100W amp to a 100W cab, but, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying it's not that at all, that it's really a function of the the strength of the signal you're pushing at any moment, which of course is a dynamic thing.

I am confused now about what Speaker Thump really is, if the 100W amp into a 100W cab rule doesn't really make sense in the real world.

Thanks for your explanation.

I think the value we set is basically a ratio used to scale up the speaker's behavior as we turn up the modeled amp and it begins to distort, that it's tied to the amp's modeled "power". @FractalAudio can clarify that.

We can wait with bated breath for Cliff to chime in and educate us.

 

[zafreemusic]

It's a balancing act. An underpowered amp can blow speakers quickly too because a clipped signal can heat the speaker coils. It's safer for the speakers to have an overpowered amp running cleanly, which is why FOH systems use big amplifiers but don't run them at full power. Of course, pushing 10x the rated power handling through a speaker can destroy it in no time also.

The Speaker Drive section in the Amp Block page in the Wiki seems useful to this thread.

I treat my Amp block settings as if it's a well-maintained vintage or boutique amp and speaker that isn't being abused so I stick close to Cliff's recommendations/defaults. An algorithm could automatically change those for people but it seems to me that the difference in sound and setting would be very subtle, probably something that most people wouldn't notice, and, because they probably also want something similar to the idea of a well-maintained amp+speaker the defaults will work for them too. If they want to make it sound like an amp that is abusing the speaker(s) then increasing the values will get there but I'm not sure what genre would want that regularly except as a very special effect because most people don't really like the sound of an speaker dying. Just my thoughts and maybe I'm that out of touch with the sound of music.

Thanks for the clarification and the quote from the Wiki. I had not read that one yet, gives some insight. That makes sense for setting the speaker thump and drive settings. However, the speaker comp and constant (which I know wasn't the topic) are what I'm personally most confused about how to set. Cliff has said in the past he wanted to raise the default for comp from 1-2 not sure if that's still a thing, but personally I am finding 2-5 the range depending on the amp. The constant I just set by ear at the moment some are ~1000 some are 5000+.

Thanks, hopefully Cliff can give us some info on this when he has a moment.