Attenuator

[SpudMan]

I have been struggling with finding a way to play in my home at volumes that provide the tube amp sound quality produced by higher volumes, without actually producing sound at such a high volume that it disturbs others in my home. There are two options: headphones or IEM's, or an attenuator. I am not familiar with how IEM's work, or with attenuator's. Does anyone have any advice on a good approach for this? If it is an attenuator, any suggestions on what to buy would be much appreciated. Same with IEM's. I am looking for good quality sound and not looking for the cheapest option, but the option that yields the best sound. Thanks!

 

[AtomicJeff]

While I don't have experience with multiple brands of attenuators, the ones I have tried (Dr. Z AIrbrake, Marshall Powerbrake, THD Hot Plate, Weber Mass) are what I consider to be the lessor expensive models by today's standards. Every one of them left me wanting something better. Every time I turned down a single minimum level from each unit's (-4 dB), I always wondered, "Where did my tone go?". This was back in the mid 2000's.

Maybe it was just me, but I gave up the search. I'll bet there are a lot better options available these days. I hear that the Tone King models are highly thought of, but they are expensive.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I have been struggling with finding a way to play in my home at volumes that provide the tube amp sound quality produced by higher volumes, without actually producing sound at such a high volume that it disturbs others in my home. There are two options: headphones or IEM's, or an attenuator. I am not familiar with how IEM's work, or with attenuator's. Does anyone have any advice on a good approach for this? If it is an attenuator, any suggestions on what to buy would be much appreciated. Same with IEM's. I am looking for good quality sound and not looking for the cheapest option, but the option that yields the best sound. Thanks!

You're asking us to compare/recommend apples or oranges.

You're using the modeler, right? If so, an attenuator is the LONG way around to solving the problem, and really wouldn't apply because it needs to sit between the power amp and speaker, or be built into the output transformer, of a real tube amp. I have a Tone King Imperial and its attenuator is part of the output transformer and has some additional tone-shaping that kicks in as the signal is reduced. I also used to have their Sky King, which has two of the same Ironman attenuators built in. But, again, those are tube combos. And, even with the built-in compensation, Fletcher-Munson waltzes in and affects our ability to hear lows and highs correctly because the volume is reduced.

With a modeler, headphones or earphones are a more common solution. I prefer headphones. The Sennheiser HD650 are a good solution, but they have their own sound that needs to be countered to push them toward being flatter. The OLLO S5X is my favorite with a very flat response.

In all cases, the Fletcher-Munson Effect WILL result in your presets sounding weird at low volumes if you EQ'd at stage volume, or vice-versa. There's no way around that. Typically we add an additional EQ block immediately before the Out 1 block and use that to compensate for the headphones, and/or the reduced volume. You could do it in the OUT 1 EQ also, but either way you'll want to adjust the sound.

 

[SpudMan]

You're asking us to compare/recommend apples or oranges.

You're using the modeler, right? If so, an attenuator is the LONG way around to solving the problem, and really wouldn't apply because it needs to sit between the power amp and speaker, or be built into the output transformer, of a real tube amp. I have a Tone King Imperial and its attenuator is part of the output transformer and has some additional tone-shaping that kicks in as the signal is reduced. I also used to have their Sky King, which has two of the same Ironman attenuators built in. But, again, those are tube combos. And, even with the built-in compensation, Fletcher-Munson waltzes in and affects our ability to hear lows and highs correctly because the volume is reduced.

With a modeler, headphones or earphones are a more common solution. I prefer headphones. The Sennheiser HD650 are a good solution, but they have their own sound that needs to be countered to push them toward being flatter. The OLLO S5X is my favorite with a very flat response.

In all cases, the Fletcher-Munson Effect WILL result in your presets sounding weird at low volumes if you EQ'd at stage volume, or vice-versa. There's no way around that. Typically we add an additional EQ block immediately before the Out 1 block and use that to compensate for the headphones, and/or the reduced volume. You could do it in the OUT 1 EQ also, but either way you'll want to adjust the sound.

Thanks Greg, I might have not been clear on what my setup is. I do have, use and enjoy an FM3. But my question was actually referring to playing through my tube amp. Currently I have a Fender Blues Jr. while I am evaluating "better" options. I know I can use the Master Volume, but I want the option of pushing both the Volume and Master Volume controls very high, and adding an attenuator to control output volume.
On the headphones/iem question; that would be for my FM3.
Sorry if I mixed apples and oranges, and sorry for my delay in responding. I appreciate your help.

 

[Toopy14]

Have a look at installing power scaling circuits.

https://londonpower.com/power-scaling-faq/

I have power scaling circuits installed in my AC30-CC2 and AC4-C1. The Master Volume (power amp.) on both is set to 10 and the Volume (pre-amp.) is set to about 1/4. Those settings put the amps. right on the edge of break-up. Without power scaling, I’d be deaf and the windows in the house would be shattered by the AC30. The power scaling is set to just a hair under max., which puts the playing level/volume of the amps. at about the same volume I would have the TV set at.

 

[Rick]

I have a Universal Audio Ox Amp Top Box, or Ox Box for short. It has solved the amp volume issue for me when using my tube amps. Not cheap, and to be honest, it is poorly updated by UA especially compared to Fractal gear. Fortunately, it came with incredibly good sound and stellar effects to begin with so the lack of updates hasn’t been a hindrance for me.

It would take a lot to explain what it does as opposed to a simple attenuator, so look up the two videos Pete Thorn did on it to get your head around the possibilities. While it might be odd to spend upwards of $1000 to tame a $800 Blues Jr, it was really worth it for me with a dozen tube amps waiting to rage in full power tube glory without killing my hearing. In short, I don’t regret one penny of the purchase. There were a couple on TGP recently at a decent discount.

You can go cheaper if attenuation is all you want, but you owe it to yourself to see what the Ox does. It might be your ticket.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Tone King Iron Man is great, and the mini is great bang for the buck with lower watt amps, very little change in tone even with late night volume levels as it was designed to account for that further you attenuate

 

[SpudMan]

I have a Universal Audio Ox Amp Top Box, or Ox Box for short. It has solved the amp volume issue for me when using my tube amps. Not cheap, and to be honest, it is poorly updated by UA especially compared to Fractal gear. Fortunately, it came with incredibly good sound and stellar effects to begin with so the lack of updates hasn’t been a hindrance for me.

It would take a lot to explain what it does as opposed to a simple attenuator, so look up the two videos Pete Thorn did on it to get your head around the possibilities. While it might be odd to spend upwards of $1000 to tame a $800 Blues Jr, it was really worth it for me with a dozen tube amps waiting to rage in full power tube glory without killing my hearing. In short, I don’t regret one penny of the purchase. There were a couple on TGP recently at a decent discount.

You can go cheaper if attenuation is all you want, but you owe it to yourself to see what the Ox does. It might be your ticket.

This looks really interesting, but as you say, it isn't inexpensive. Looks like currently the cost is $1,499 USD. Probably overkill for me in the short run, but something to consider longer term. Thanks for the recommendation. It really does look like a great piece of equipment.

 

[SpudMan]

Have a look at installing power scaling circuits.

https://londonpower.com/power-scaling-faq/

I have power scaling circuits installed in my AC30-CC2 and AC4-C1. The Master Volume (power amp.) on both is set to 10 and the Volume (pre-amp.) is set to about 1/4. Those settings put the amps. right on the edge of break-up. Without power scaling, I’d be deaf and the windows in the house would be shattered by the AC30. The power scaling is set to just a hair under max., which puts the playing level/volume of the amps. at about the same volume I would have the TV set at.

Thanks, I am looking into this now. I appreciate the recommendation. But it doesn't look like any authorized installers are in my area. Still something to look into further.

 

[Toopy14]

Thanks, I am looking into this now. I appreciate the recommendation. But it doesn't look like any authorized installers are in my area. Still something to look into further.

Not sure where you are, but buy the parts direct from Kevin and any qualified tech., can install it, if you're not comfortable doing it. Keep in mind, there are dangers working with the high voltages in amps., if the capacitors have not been discharged safely.

I bought my AC30 from someone in Texas and had it shipped to Lyle Caldwell in TN., to install the power scaling circuit and make some other modifications to make it closer to the original 60's JMI specs (sounds amazing). The power scaling control was installed where the standby switch is. The standby switch on an AC30 is useless, so Lyle removed it.

For the AC4, I verified with Kevin (at London Power Scaling) which circuit I needed and ordered it direct ($134.96 CDN, all in). The package contained the printed circuit board and all the components with a schematic of where the components needed to be installed in the board. I soldered them in myself, to save money, then had a local tech. install the board for me, with the instructions and schematics supplied. It only cost me $135.00 CDN.

Here's a pic. of the circuit in the AC4 and the controls on the back. I bought the knobs separately.

Here's what the amp. sounds like (LP Traditional Goldtop -> AX8 - AC4C1-12). Just take into account that it was recorded with and iPad...oh and my playing! The power scaling is just off max., MV=10 and Drive about 3'ish. I would easily be able to talk over the amp. and I doubt someone upstairs would hear it. The nice thing about PS, is that it's easier on the amp. than an attenuator and you still get that nice cranked, OD tone, without going deaf!



Here's the thread of the Tolex replacement I did on the AC4. It includes the pics I posted and the video (more audio than video).

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/a-vox-just-isn’t-a-vox.151615/#post-1804078

 

[SpudMan]

Not sure where you are, but buy the parts direct from Kevin and any qualified tech., can install it, if you're not comfortable doing it. Keep in mind, there are dangers working with the high voltages in amps., if the capacitors have not been discharged safely.

I bought my AC30 from someone in Texas and had it shipped to Lyle Caldwell in TN., to install the power scaling circuit and make some other modifications to make it closer to the original 60's JMI specs (sounds amazing). The power scaling control was installed where the standby switch is. The standby switch on an AC30 is useless, so Lyle removed it.

For the AC4, I verified with Kevin (at London Power Scaling) which circuit I needed and ordered it direct ($134.96 CDN, all in). The package contained the printed circuit board and all the components with a schematic of where the components needed to be installed in the board. I soldered them in myself, to save money, then had a local tech. install the board for me, with the instructions and schematics supplied. It only cost me $135.00 CDN.

Here's a pic. of the circuit in the AC4 and the controls on the back. I bought the knobs separately.

Here's what the amp. sounds like (LP Traditional Goldtop -> AX8 - AC4C1-12). Just take into account that it was recorded with and iPad...oh and my playing! The power scaling is just off max., MV=10 and Drive about 3'ish. I would easily be able to talk over the amp. and I doubt someone upstairs would hear it. The nice thing about PS, is that it's easier on the amp. than an attenuator and you still get that nice cranked, OD tone, without going deaf!



Here's the thread of the Tolex replacement I did on the AC4. It includes the pics I posted and the video (more audio than video).

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/a-vox-just-isn’t-a-vox.151615/#post-1804078

Thanks again. Sounds nice! I will definitely look into this further. Looks like a reasonable cost solution. Kudo's on your Goldtop LP. I had one way back in the old days of the 70's. Wish I hadn't sold it, but that was long ago. Now I don't like the finish on the new ones. Too shiny and plastic looking for me. If I were going for one I would probably just buy and Epiphone LP and change pickups eventually. Same finish I don't like, but much cheaper. Although I hate buying stuff made in China.

 

[Toopy14]

Thanks again. Sounds nice! I will definitely look into this further. Looks like a reasonable cost solution. Kudo's on your Goldtop LP. I had one way back in the old days of the 70's. Wish I hadn't sold it, but that was long ago. Now I don't like the finish on the new ones. Too shiny and plastic looking for me. If I were going for one I would probably just buy and Epiphone LP and change pickups eventually. Same finish I don't like, but much cheaper. Although I hate buying stuff made in China.

My Goldtop is a 2010, definitely not vintage like the one you had. Oldest guitar I have, is an 87 LPC that was alpine white, but is turning into a nice creamy yellow, thanks to the lacquer finish. Not light though!

 

[Riffraff12571]

Your best option is a reamper type like Fryette's PowerStation. I'm surprised nobody suggested it yet. They are a reactive load and a tube amp in one with a built in effects loop to add your time based effects post you amp's power section and a line out which is handy for recording. They allow your amp to sound exactly the same running in its sweet spot from a whisper to a roar. The tube amp portion comes with either a pair of 6L6GC's for 50w or a pair of 6550's for 100w. If you have a little 5w screamer you love you can use one to increase your volume to gig levels and gain an effects loop your little amp doesn't have.

I have a pretty big tube amp collection and plan on replacing my Hot Plate and Weber Mass100 with a PS2A (50w model). How cool would it be to see some dude gigging something crazy like my '47 Masco? It could be done with a PowerStation.

 

[SpudMan]

Your best option is a reamper type like Fryette's PowerStation. I'm surprised nobody suggested it yet. They are a reactive load and a tube amp in one with a built in effects loop to add your time based effects post you amp's power section and a line out which is handy for recording. They allow your amp to sound exactly the same running in its sweet spot from a whisper to a roar. The tube amp portion comes with either a pair of 6L6GC's for 50w or a pair of 6550's for 100w. If you have a little 5w screamer you love you can use one to increase your volume to gig levels and gain an effects loop your little amp doesn't have.

I have a pretty big tube amp collection and plan on replacing my Hot Plate and Weber Mass100 with a PS2A (50w model). How cool would it be to see some dude gigging something crazy like my '47 Masco? It could be done with a PowerStation.

Another really nice solution. Unfortunately for me it costs more than my current Blues Jr. It is just hard to justify doing that vs. upgrading my amp first. But I do appreciate the suggestion. It does look like a great option.

 

[SpudMan]

You're asking us to compare/recommend apples or oranges.

You're using the modeler, right? If so, an attenuator is the LONG way around to solving the problem, and really wouldn't apply because it needs to sit between the power amp and speaker, or be built into the output transformer, of a real tube amp. I have a Tone King Imperial and its attenuator is part of the output transformer and has some additional tone-shaping that kicks in as the signal is reduced. I also used to have their Sky King, which has two of the same Ironman attenuators built in. But, again, those are tube combos. And, even with the built-in compensation, Fletcher-Munson waltzes in and affects our ability to hear lows and highs correctly because the volume is reduced.

With a modeler, headphones or earphones are a more common solution. I prefer headphones. The Sennheiser HD650 are a good solution, but they have their own sound that needs to be countered to push them toward being flatter. The OLLO S5X is my favorite with a very flat response.

In all cases, the Fletcher-Munson Effect WILL result in your presets sounding weird at low volumes if you EQ'd at stage volume, or vice-versa. There's no way around that. Typically we add an additional EQ block immediately before the Out 1 block and use that to compensate for the headphones, and/or the reduced volume. You could do it in the OUT 1 EQ also, but either way you'll want to adjust the sound.

Hi Greg, I just circled back to this thread I started and have a couple of questions:
(1) I realize that I do have the same need to get full volume sound without actual loudness from both my FM3 and from my tube amp. Regarding the Ollo headphones, and given that my needs are primarily for playing, not recording or performing in public, are there other Ollo models, or other headphones in general you would recommend?
(2) Regarding my tube amp and attenuation, I am leaning towards the Tone King Ironman II, but not sure which model to get. I would love to save money, but it seems that the mini is not as flexible in terms of supporting potential future tube amp purchases. What do you think of the Ironman II? I like a lot of the other suggestions on this thread, but they are above what I want to spend, and I really don't have cabinet emulation as a priority.

Thanks for any input you might have.

 

[mvsr990]

The only good options for home volumes (bringing, say, a 50W amp to 85-90db max - I'm paranoid about my hearing so I try to keep levels below that threshold) I've found are modeling and the Power Station or Waza Tube Amp Expander. Attenuators are good for shaving a few decibels off the top end, power scaling has not been highly successful for me.

I've got a Benson Vinny Reverb - even at 5 watts with power scaling, the compromise on where power scaling has to be for comfort means I run it into the Power Station anyway.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

(1) I realize that I do have the same need to get full volume sound without actual loudness from both my FM3 and from my tube amp. Regarding the Ollo headphones, and given that my needs are primarily for playing, not recording or performing in public, are there other Ollo models, or other headphones in general you would recommend?

There are only three models. The S5X is the latest and are a pleasure to use, for comfort and sound. They’re open back so they would not be suitable for recording if there’s a microphone close as the sound from the headphones could bleed into the recording.

Search the forum for headphone threads.

(2) Regarding my tube amp and attenuation, I am leaning towards the Tone King Ironman II, but not sure which model to get. I would love to save money, but it seems that the mini is not as flexible in terms of supporting potential future tube amp purchases. What do you think of the Ironman II? I like a lot of the other suggestions on this thread, but they are above what I want to spend, and I really don't have cabinet emulation as a priority.

The Ironman II is very good. I would go for one of their amps that’s been gently used that includes the Ironman II, like an Imperial Mk II or the Falcon, because they practically give away the Ironman when it’s built in. Unfortunately it won’t work with other amps when it is built in like that. The Imperial and Sky King are great amps but either is a bit much for home use though, so you probably want to find a used standalone Ironman II so you can use it with anything below 100 watts(?)… or maybe it was 50… there’s a limit to how much power can be handled.

Any sort of attenuation or power reduction will change the sound of the amp as you reduce it, thanks to our old friend Fletcher-Munson.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Attenuators are good for shaving a few decibels off the top end, power scaling has not been highly successful for me.

The Ironman II does a great job down to a loud whisper level, but the lower you go the sound becomes anemic, but that’s not the fault of the attenuator, it’s our brain.

 

[SpudMan]

The Ironman II does a great job down to a loud whisper level, but the lower you go the sound becomes anemic, but that’s not the fault of the attenuator, it’s our brain.

All good suggestions. The Tone King amps look nice, but not knowing the type of sound the provide, I lean towards the amps I want that I know deliver the sound I am looking for. On the Ironman II, what you say makes perfect sense. I am uncertain about the best tube amp option. For now I think maybe I just stick with messing with my Master Volume and accepting the compromise, and looking into a high quality headphone for the FM3.

 

[SpudMan]

There are only three models. The S5X is the latest and are a pleasure to use, for comfort and sound. They’re open back so they would not be suitable for recording if there’s a microphone close as the sound from the headphones could bleed into the recording.

Search the forum for headphone threads.



The Ironman II is very good. I would go for one of their amps that’s been gently used that includes the Ironman II, like an Imperial Mk II or the Falcon, because they practically give away the Ironman when it’s built in. Unfortunately it won’t work with other amps when it is built in like that. The Imperial and Sky King are great amps but either is a bit much for home use though, so you probably want to find a used standalone Ironman II so you can use it with anything below 100 watts(?)… or maybe it was 50… there’s a limit to how much power can be handled.

Any sort of attenuation or power reduction will change the sound of the amp as you reduce it, thanks to our old friend Fletcher-Munson.

Greg, I was searching for a thread on "attenuating" my Fractal and found my own thread here. I am struggling with getting the sound I want from my modeler without the high volumes. I use an EV PXM-12M and lately to get the sound I want it requires volume levels that greatly aggravate my tinnitus. Yesterday I was playing around with the Spawn Q-Rod OD2-2 amp and it really messed with my tinnitus.
I was wondering if you, or anyone else reading this, might have suggestions on how to get the best sounds out of the Fractal without causing hearing issues? I currently have an FM3. I don't think that any other Fractal would impact this decision, but if so, I am open to "upgrading". Would my best bet be using the EQ block? Seems like using headphones would be harder on my tinnitus.
I am also looking into the Tone King you mention earlier in this thread. I mostly play at home so not sure it the Imperial is too loud, but if it works for home with attenuation, I am good with that. Then it would just be combo vs. head/cabinet decision.
As always, if this has been discussed elsewhere, pointing me to another thread would be helpful.