Atomic Reactor FR vs Verve 12ma

[BMH]

Well, PA systems are solid state, and that is what you will be miced through.

So enough about the quality of solid state, it IS the state of the art, unless you still hold onto your old tube PA systems.

You cannot just write off the squealing problem, of COURSE turning the gain down stops it, but that is not the point, is it? People do not have that squealing at the same volumes with the Verve 12ma. So exactly what sound quality are you referring to, the squealing, or the adjusting of the Axe to stop it?

You guys who cannot get a good sound out of the Verve should try the Fratomic. I don't need to. The Verve is louder, doesn't squeal high gain patches, is lighter to carry, and my Axe sits right on top for small gigs. You have to put that Fratomic up on a stand to even hear it. Unless your butt has ears. I can set the verve up many different ways, tilted up if needed ....

And I am not insulted if you don't even play again, let alone what equipment you like. I am in here posting becasue I use the Verve 12ma and it is spectacular.

This thread, BTW, is Fratomic vs Verve 12ma ... so obviously that is why we are discussing both.

I'm starting to get worried about this squealing issue. Can someene post a clip of it?


As for the "Tube vs SS" argument, both types of amplifiers can be designed to be extremely flat with very little distortion or coloration. Just look at the audiophile market. There are many multi-thousand dollar amps that still use tubes. As for comparing the spl's of the 12ma vs the Atomic, who cares? If overall volume is your requirement, then get the loudest system you can afford but for me, I want the best sounding system and for that, the Atomic is the answer now.

.

 

[Sixstring]

I'm starting to get worried about this squealing issue. Can someene post a clip of it?

Then someone said the feedback isn't very natural or something?

I was also a poster of that issue. Feedback can be very unpredictable when squealing or microphonic feedback is present. Your note with tend to wonder as squealing starts to take over and eventually will destroy the musical feedback portion of what your trying to accomplish. As posted if you are running a preset with a lot of gain and high volumes it will happen as with other FR systems it is inherent by design but tamable.

 

[raz]

As soon as Raz gets his Fratomics we will do an A/B on video with the 12MAs and 8MAa.

You're going to inadvertently get me in trouble on this thread ;-). I received my Reactor FR's late last week, which is why I posted here.

 

[raz]

You guys who cannot get a good sound out of the Verve should try the Fratomic. I don't need to. The Verve is louder, doesn't squeal high gain patches, is lighter to carry, and my Axe sits right on top for small gigs. You have to put that Fratomic up on a stand to even hear it. Unless your butt has ears. I can set the verve up many different ways, tilted up if needed ....

Have you actually used a Reactor FR? I had gotten the impression from your posts that you hadn't, but you seem very adamant here - so did I miss something? You've actually compared the two units?

Not trying to be argumentative here; I'm curious, because I haven't seen any posts on this squealing issue that came close to a definitive answer on the matter of whether a properly operating Reactor FR tended to squeal where another FRFR solution wouldn't, all else being equal. Please point me to any such posts to correct me if I'm in error.

 

[mitch236]

I found the squealing to be a result of me standing directly in front of the Fratomic. To make this fair, today, I set up the 12ma and turned the volume up and stood right in front of it and voila! There was squealing too!

I don't think the squealing is an issue any more. I think by nature, I was standing very close to the Atomic to get to the controls to set the tweeter level. Since I've backed away, there hasn't been a problem.


Look, the 12ma is a great FR system for the Axe. Anyone fortunate enough to have one (or two) is lucky. But truth be told, the Atomic is better. I can do a video too once my recorder comes in (about a week) but I don't think a u-tube video is going to mean anything. If you already have the 12ma and are happy then keep it. But if you are looking for a FR solution, for now, the Atomic seems to be the best. I used to think the 12ma was the best so I'm sure something will come along that will de-throne the Atomic at some point but for now, the Atomic is head of the class.

 

[yek]

I own two Atomics. I like their sound and portability.

Build quality could be improved: one was exchanged because of a tweeter failure. The other has a fan that's way too noise when switching it on.

I too experience the squealing. It only happens when turning the guitar towards the speaker at a very close range, but when it happens it's loud and annoying.

I also noticed another phenomenon: if the guitar is too close to the speaker (pointed towards the speaker), the tone gets "glassy". Comparable to phase cancellation.

Easily taken care of: I do not put the Axe-Fx on top of the Atomic(s). This prevents both "issues".

 

[knoll]

This is my understanding about SS vs Tube Wattage:

Wattage ratings for amps mean how much of clean, undistorted, power it can deliver. This means that...

- 300W solid state amp will get you roughly 300W of undistorted power. If pushed further it starts to distort and that won't sound pretty.
- 50W guitar tube amplifier will get you roughly 50W of undistorted power. But because of the nature of guitar tube amp design it can be pushed further (more wattage) and the distortion actually sounds pretty, colored but pretty. What I don't know is what the actual wattage values are when 50W guitar tube amplifier is pushed to max.
- 50W hifi (or FRFR) tube amp will get you roughly 50W of undistorted power. I'm not totally sure about their design but I believe that their "master volume" is limited so that it won't go past the clean 50W. Of course there may be exceptions that don't limit the power to the clean part but may allow to go further (but then you start to get color and distortion.

Please correct me if there is something wrong.

 

[Tone Seeker]

This is my understanding about SS vs Tube Wattage

I understand where you're coming from but for perspective, a "watt" is a "watt", regardless as to which technology is used to produce it.

Wattage ratings for amps mean how much of clean, undistorted, power it can deliver.

When evaluating power ratings it's very important to understand the parameters used. For example, how clean is "clean" at the specified power rating or put another way, how much distortion is produced at the rated power? The amplifier load must be understood. The same amplifier will be rated at different power levels into (for example) an 8 ohm load versus a 4 ohm load. Another parameter to consider is duration of power produced. An amplifier will be capable of producing more power for a short burst than it will be capable of producing for an extended, or "continuous", period of time. Without understanding the characteristics of a manufacturers power rating it's difficult to put that rating into context.

When evaluating powered monitors there is another dynamic involved, the efficiency of the speaker and cabinet. The same amplifier will produce more sound from an efficient speaker than from an inefficient speaker. That's why you will see specifications for "SPL", or Sound Pressure Level for powered monitors. This is the level of sound produced by the entire speaker system, amplifier, speaker and cabinet. However, it's still important to understand the parameters for a manufacturer's rated product SPL. Was this a peak SPL or a continuous SPL? Was it across the entire frequency spectrum or was it measured at one frequency? How far from the speaker was the measurement taken? For example, a Tannoy PowerV8 is rated at 113dB average / 119dB peak. The Tannoy rating is based on using an unweighted pink noise input, measured at 1 metre in an anechoic chamber. The Verve 8ma is rated at 117dB but the parameters for that rating are not published. Which one is louder? It's difficult or impossible to tell based only on this information.

My point is that manufacturer specifications often lack the information and common reference points needed to assess them and make comparisons to other products. This can lead to a great deal of confusion and misinformation. At the end of the day we're largely left with subjective comparisons, our own and those of others, where products are used and compared in real-life settings.

Terry.

 

[MKeditor]

As soon as Raz gets his Fratomics we will do an A/B on video with the 12MAs and 8MAa.

You're going to inadvertently get me in trouble on this thread ;-). I received my Reactor FR's late last week, which is why I posted here.

Ahh.....you're a rebel at heart. You're pretty good at causing a stir without any help.

 

[QuadAllegory]

I found the squealing to be a result of me standing directly in front of the Fratomic. To make this fair, today, I set up the 12ma and turned the volume up and stood right in front of it and voila! There was squealing too!

I don't think the squealing is an issue any more. I think by nature, I was standing very close to the Atomic to get to the controls to set the tweeter level. Since I've backed away, there hasn't been a problem.


Look, the 12ma is a great FR system for the Axe. Anyone fortunate enough to have one (or two) is lucky. But truth be told, the Atomic is better. I can do a video too once my recorder comes in (about a week) but I don't think a u-tube video is going to mean anything. If you already have the 12ma and are happy then keep it. But if you are looking for a FR solution, for now, the Atomic seems to be the best. I used to think the 12ma was the best so I'm sure something will come along that will de-throne the Atomic at some point but for now, the Atomic is head of the class.

Thanks for the info Mitch! About how far do you have to stand away from it?

According to "yek" if you don't put the Axe-Fx on top of the Atomic, you don't get the problem, or at least it's lessened I assume. Kinda sucks cause I don't really know where else to put the Axe unit. I don't have a rack or stand for it (don't really want one cause they're ugly and use more space). I guess I'll have to find a place to put the unit that looks good and doesn't take to much space.

 

[Sixstring]

I found the squealing to be a result of me standing directly in front of the Fratomic. To make this fair, today, I set up the 12ma and turned the volume up and stood right in front of it and voila! There was squealing too!

I don't think the squealing is an issue any more. I think by nature, I was standing very close to the Atomic to get to the controls to set the tweeter level. Since I've backed away, there hasn't been a problem.


Look, the 12ma is a great FR system for the Axe. Anyone fortunate enough to have one (or two) is lucky. But truth be told, the Atomic is better. I can do a video too once my recorder comes in (about a week) but I don't think a u-tube video is going to mean anything. If you already have the 12ma and are happy then keep it. But if you are looking for a FR solution, for now, the Atomic seems to be the best. I used to think the 12ma was the best so I'm sure something will come along that will de-throne the Atomic at some point but for now, the Atomic is head of the class.

Thanks for the info Mitch! About how far do you have to stand away from it?

According to "yek" if you don't put the Axe-Fx on top of the Atomic, you don't get the problem, or at least it's lessened I assume. Kinda sucks cause I don't really know where else to put the Axe unit. I don't have a rack or stand for it (don't really want one cause they're ugly and use more space). I guess I'll have to find a place to put the unit that looks good and doesn't take to much space.

I think that statment is directed towards the fact you won't have to get near the Reactor to tune the Axe. As to how far to stand away from the Reactor will be determined how loud you are running it. At gig volume running a high gain preset I couldn't get any closer than 5-6 feet befor things went microphonic and that is with the guitar facing the amp. If you using a guitar with hot pup's I would think that distance would get larger.

 

[mitch236]

I found the squealing to be a result of me standing directly in front of the Fratomic. To make this fair, today, I set up the 12ma and turned the volume up and stood right in front of it and voila! There was squealing too!

I don't think the squealing is an issue any more. I think by nature, I was standing very close to the Atomic to get to the controls to set the tweeter level. Since I've backed away, there hasn't been a problem.


Look, the 12ma is a great FR system for the Axe. Anyone fortunate enough to have one (or two) is lucky. But truth be told, the Atomic is better. I can do a video too once my recorder comes in (about a week) but I don't think a u-tube video is going to mean anything. If you already have the 12ma and are happy then keep it. But if you are looking for a FR solution, for now, the Atomic seems to be the best. I used to think the 12ma was the best so I'm sure something will come along that will de-throne the Atomic at some point but for now, the Atomic is head of the class.

Thanks for the info Mitch! About how far do you have to stand away from it?

According to "yek" if you don't put the Axe-Fx on top of the Atomic, you don't get the problem, or at least it's lessened I assume. Kinda sucks cause I don't really know where else to put the Axe unit. I don't have a rack or stand for it (don't really want one cause they're ugly and use more space). I guess I'll have to find a place to put the unit that looks good and doesn't take to much space.

I think that statment is directed towards the fact you won't have to get near the Reactor to tune the Axe. As to how far to stand away from the Reactor will be determined how loud you are running it. At gig volume running a high gain preset I couldn't get any closer than 5-6 feet befor things went microphonic and that is with the guitar facing the amp. If you using a guitar with hot pup's I would think that distance would get larger.

Yup, that's what we were talking about. When I first used the Atomic, I was standing right in front of the Axe which is atop of the Atomic so I got squealing. Once I backed away it was fine. So far I haven't had any squealing in band level playing at normal distances with very hot pickups.

 

[BMH]

What I have not heard from any of you Verve/Atomic guys is any adjustments to the Verve itself. It has both a bass and treble control on the back. I stand right in front of the Verve with all my high gain patches and tweak them on the Fractal unit. Never once had a squeel.

Just because you owned something does not mean you knew how to use it properly. No offense meant by that either, but when a guy talks about the Verve having more treble, when there is a treble volume knob on it, it makes little sense in comparison to the Atomic. Where was the treble control set to?!?!?

Same with the bass. If you did not experiment turning the bass up and down on the Verve itself, you did not use it properly. Saying it does not have enough bass, or as much as the Fratomic begs the question "where was the bass control set".

I am getting a Fratomic. And I will post the results with considreration to the full spectrum of each unit. Not where your knobs happen to be set on the Verve.

Again, my Verve rips. Sorry you could not figure it out if you went back to tubes, but you now are enjoying a colored sound. That does not translate to the PA at all. Maybe you Fratomic guys do not go through the PA?!?

 

[Tone Seeker]

Again, my Verve rips. Sorry you could not figure it out if you went back to tubes, but you now are enjoying a colored sound. That does not translate to the PA at all. Maybe you Fratomic guys do not go through the PA?!?

Has it been established that the Fratomic is coloured, or have you made the broad assumption that all tube devices are coloured (which is incorrect)?

Terry.

 

[Tom King]

The Reactor FR is as, or more flat than most of the non-tube FR solutions discussed on this board. People making an argument to the contrary are not properly informed.

-TK

 

[goodwill559]

The Reactor FR is as, or more flat than most of the non-tube FR solutions discussed on this board. People making an argument to the contrary are not properly informed.

-TK

Agreed. And if it hasn't been mentioned yet, don't some systems use DSP to obtain a flatter response which may introduce unwanted elements?

 

[BMH]

The Reactor FR is as, or more flat than most of the non-tube FR solutions discussed on this board. People making an argument to the contrary are not properly informed.

-TK

Agreed. And if it hasn't been mentioned yet, don't some systems use DSP to obtain a flatter response which may introduce unwanted elements?

I ordered an Atomic, we will see how they match up ...

 

[Tone Seeker]

I ordered an Atomic, we will see how they match up ...

BMH, I don't have either the Verve or the Reactor FR, but I'm looking for a truly neutral, flat response powered monitor. Do you have a good set of studio monitors that you can use as a point of reference to compare both of these to? That kind of feedback would be invaluable to me.

Terry.

 

[alchemist]

Can somebody post the frequency response curves for the Reactor, as well as specs like cross-over frequency, SPL, etc.? If you advertise it as a FRFR solution (Full Range Flat Response) -- well, I'd like to see the range and response measurements! I know many people have said that specs don't matter and that as long as it sounds good -- that's what matters. But then you're talking about sound -- not FRFR accuracy. By looking at the frequency response and other measurements -- we should be able to tell whether it is colored or not. This concept also applies to microphones. The ones that impart color can usually be identified by their electrical and sound measurements. I don't see why FRFR monitors are any different.

 

[xrist04]

Can somebody post the frequency response curves for the Reactor? I know many people have said that specs don't matter and that as long as it sounds good -- that's what matters. But that does not answer the question on whether it is colored or not, or whether or not it is a better FRFR solution than something else. That's like saying a mic's frequency response doesn't make a difference. It does, and that's what gives it its "color" to a large degree.

The manufacturer has previously stated that frequency-response curves will not be published for the Atomic Reactor FR.