As we go, sharing patches is getting complicated... and more

Patch sharing has always been dicey. There are way too many factors involved, and perhaps the most important one is the individual players touch and technique. That doesn't mean sharing is useless. Many of my "go to" patches are borrowed, with minor tweaks to make them work for me. I get what Scott's saying, but I hope it doesn't chill enthusiasm for patch exchanging.
 
ElectricPhase said:
Patch sharing has always been dicey. There are way too many factors involved, and perhaps the most important one is the individual players touch and technique. That doesn't mean sharing is useless. Many of my "go to" patches are borrowed, with minor tweaks to make them work for me. I get what Scott's saying, but I hope it doesn't chill enthusiasm for patch exchanging.

+1

I don't use other's patches live, but I have certainly learned a lot from them. While I don't find that they work for me well enough to use them with my rig live, I do find that they offer a lot of insight. While I hope everyone can come back to reality with what to expect from a downloaded patch or preset, I hope that we can all still share them to learn from each other.

D
 
ElectricPhase said:
Patch sharing has always been dicey. There are way too many factors involved, and perhaps the most important one is the individual players touch and technique. That doesn't mean sharing is useless. Many of my "go to" patches are borrowed, with minor tweaks to make them work for me. I get what Scott's saying, but I hope it doesn't chill enthusiasm for patch exchanging.

I'm really not intending that whatsoever.

I am trying to encourage the guys that post 'share your patch!' to simply dig into the patch once provided and learn why it works or not compared to what you normally do.

I'm actually trying to encourage patch sharing, but as noted here - with caveats, with context and realistic expectations that we can just all have the 'homogenized' tone with the click of a switch. We can't. Thats' my point.
 
ElectricPhase said:
Many of my "go to" patches are borrowed, with minor tweaks to make them work for me. I get what Scott's saying, but I hope it doesn't chill enthusiasm for patch exchanging.

+ 1,000,000 !

I have tried nearly every patch that has been shared...and I have most of them saved.

Maybe out of the 1,000 patches I have tried I have found 20 or so that worked for me, with maybe a switched cab and some EQ tweaks.

My favorite patch right now is the Bonamassa patch that is on the axechange, along with Scott's Deluxe patch....(I have the redwire IR's)
 
Scott Peterson said:
It's there - the Raw bank presets a member here made.

Yup, I still use that occasionally. My only gripe would be that most are not set up with a cab that it would *normally* use. In other words Recto1 with 4x12 Recto cab, etc.

Scott Peterson said:
The IR's are a flat out key to getting good tones. If you haven't noticed the 'little uproar' over the 'in the room' vs. 'close mic'd' guys over the past few years.... you are not being honest. The guys saying you CAN have the 'in the room' thing with a full blown FRFR were doing advanced (at the time... or still) things with custom IR's. They are flat out, imperative to nailing certain 'feels' in getting tones.
Absolutely understand. However, my argument would be for someone who just plugs in for the first time, and wants a basic tone DIRECT. What so many people are saying now is that the 'key' is getting IR's. Either someone else's, create your own, or buy them. I consider that a downfall of the Axe-FX if it is the general consensus. Really, we're starting to run down the road of 'Yes, it's a great box, but you still need someone else's cab IR's'. Huh?
Scott Peterson said:
Once RedWirez drops true far field referenced mic'd version of their cabs and speakers in the next few months... BOOM goes the whole thing again.
I'll wait for this next iteration and maybe jump in then. But do you see how the continual 'Ooh, this will make it even 'BETTER', can be somewhat of a putoff for a new user?
Scott Peterson said:
And that, is where the 'plug-n-play' guys and I will have to separate. I don't want to sound like this guy or that guy. I bust my arse to find MY tones and keep working, keep refining in much the same manner I always have with conventional tube gear/pedals/speaker cabs for the past nearly 30 years (damn, am I getting old....).
I'm not asking that anyone ELSE change here. I know some will be as meticulous and exacting as you are, BUT, allow that there is a population that does not have the inclination or time to be able to tweak at length. They just want to play right away.

All I'm saying is that working presets and a simple setup is needed. I, personally, know very much about the ins and outs of my Standard, it's NOT about that. It's about that I think there would be more adoptee's if they could break open the box, pick 5 EXISTING factory presets, and go to band practice. YES, you have to learn the box, and YES, if you want your tone perfect, you HAVE to dig in. But how many people do you know who just want to plug in their guitar, turn TMB a few times, and play? I know quite a few...most are working musicians.

Ron
 
electronpirate said:
Scott Peterson said:
It's there - the Raw bank presets a member here made.
electronpirate said:
Yup, I still use that occasionally. My only gripe would be that most are not set up with a cab that it would *normally* use. In other words Recto1 with 4x12 Recto cab, etc.
[quote="Scott Peterson":3s5uv41j]
The IR's are a flat out key to getting good tones. If you haven't noticed the 'little uproar' over the 'in the room' vs. 'close mic'd' guys over the past few years.... you are not being honest. The guys saying you CAN have the 'in the room' thing with a full blown FRFR were doing advanced (at the time... or still) things with custom IR's. They are flat out, imperative to nailing certain 'feels' in getting tones.
electronpirate said:
Absolutely understand. However, my argument would be for someone who just plugs in for the first time, and wants a basic tone DIRECT. What so many people are saying now is that the 'key' is getting IR's. Either someone else's, create your own, or buy them. I consider that a downfall of the Axe-FX if it is the general consensus. Really, we're starting to run down the road of 'Yes, it's a great box, but you still need someone else's cab IR's'. Huh?
Scott Peterson said:
Once RedWirez drops true far field referenced mic'd version of their cabs and speakers in the next few months... BOOM goes the whole thing again.
electronpirate said:
I'll wait for this next iteration and maybe jump in then. But do you see how the continual 'Ooh, this will make it even 'BETTER', can be somewhat of a putoff for a new user?
Scott Peterson said:
And that, is where the 'plug-n-play' guys and I will have to separate. I don't want to sound like this guy or that guy. I bust my arse to find MY tones and keep working, keep refining in much the same manner I always have with conventional tube gear/pedals/speaker cabs for the past nearly 30 years (damn, am I getting old....).
electronpirate said:
I'm not asking that anyone ELSE change here. I know some will be as meticulous and exacting as you are, BUT, allow that there is a population that does not have the inclination or time to be able to tweak at length. They just want to play right away.

All I'm saying is that working presets and a simple setup is needed. I, personally, know very much about the ins and outs of my Standard, it's NOT about that. It's about that I think there would be more adoptee's if they could break open the box, pick 5 EXISTING factory presets, and go to band practice. YES, you have to learn the box, and YES, if you want your tone perfect, you HAVE to dig in. But how many people do you know who just want to plug in their guitar, turn TMB a few times, and play? I know quite a few...most are working musicians.

Ron[/quote:3s5uv41j]

Ron, but then would any 'plug-n-play' guy out there be attracted to something like the Axe-FX in the first place? No sarcasm, real question.

The guys that are 'plug-n-play' working pros are not even going to give something like the Axe-FX a second glance. To harness what you can do, you have to dig in. There is NO way around it. No factory preset, or user preset is going to work universally. Go to TGP and search for any of the "Show your rig" picture threads. Look at even just a random page of one of those threads. The rigs are SO varied, SO different and SO individual it's almost a cliche.

To me a preset on the Axe-FX (assuming amp and cab blocks plus effects) equals a full blown rig. With rigs - without exception - so varied in reality, how then can presets NOT be the same.... varied?

A jazz cat plugging into a Mesa Recto half stack isn't going to work. The brootlz guy with the Mesa plugging into a Polytone isn't going to work.

Even if you had 300+ presets (as the Axe-FX shows up with) and literally 1000's now from users... nothing is universal.

And I am not kidding about looking at one of those "Show your rig!" threads on TGP. It will blow your mind.
 
electronpirate said:
...... It's about that I think there would be more adoptee's if they could break open the box, pick 5 EXISTING factory presets, and go to band practice. YES, you have to learn the box, and YES, if you want your tone perfect, you HAVE to dig in. But how many people do you know who just want to plug in their guitar, turn TMB a few times, and play? I know quite a few...most are working musicians ......


YES YES YES

With an organized set of factory patches the box can serve both types of users (tweakers and preset users).
 
Scott Peterson said:
Ron, but then would any 'plug-n-play' guy out there be attracted to something like the Axe-FX in the first place? No sarcasm, real question.

The guys that are 'plug-n-play' working pros are not even going to give something like the Axe-FX a second glance. To harness what you can do, you have to dig in. There is NO way around it. No factory preset, or user preset is going to work universally. Go to TGP and search for any of the "Show your rig" picture threads. Look at even just a random page of one of those threads. The rigs are SO varied, SO different and SO individual it's almost a cliche.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that a Plug and Play guy would be interested. Not necessarily full time working pro's (who WILL work on their rigs and tone constantly), but those who gig 2 - 5 times a month who just want an amp, and a guitar. These guys are interested in 'I don't have to think about it'. What's easier than taking a 2U rack, pedalboard, and guitar to your gig?

I AGREE with you 100% that if you want to harness what the Axe-FX can do, you have to be intimately familiar with the innards. Can you agree that there are people don't care a whit for envelope filters, etc? I've seen plenty of great amps that are used to 10% of their capabilities..they set it once and go. Or who buys a Komet, sets it once at a gig, plays out the night. He's bought a Komet because he doesn't want to screw around with programming, tweaking, testing cabs, etc. Wouldn't THAT guy want to have that amp, with the possibility of using 20 others?

I'm simply arguing for the Axe-FX to just be an AMP. Sure, add a drive, add 'verb, add delay, but just be an amp. There should not be a 2 month learning curve on something that could be solved with 20 solid, simple factory presets.

Ron
 
There's no need for presets to do what you guys are describing. If someone is a plug and play amp guy that wouldn't mod or anything like that in the real world, then his Axe-fx use is simple.

1. Drop amp in and select the model you want (Blackface)
2. Drop cab in (Black 2x12)
3. Turn TMB knobs as well as master and drive until happy
4. Play your guitar

No one needs to dive in any further unless they want to. I started like this just like I would with a real amp. After some time spent with the virtual amp I decided to change some things much like I would in the real world and I tweaked it some.

You can make things as simple or as complicated as you want. If you want simple, drop in an amp and cab and then just tweak the knobs you know from real amps. Get fancy later if you want. You don't need presets for this basic operation.

D
 
electronpirate said:
Scott Peterson said:
Ron, but then would any 'plug-n-play' guy out there be attracted to something like the Axe-FX in the first place? No sarcasm, real question.

The guys that are 'plug-n-play' working pros are not even going to give something like the Axe-FX a second glance. To harness what you can do, you have to dig in. There is NO way around it. No factory preset, or user preset is going to work universally. Go to TGP and search for any of the "Show your rig" picture threads. Look at even just a random page of one of those threads. The rigs are SO varied, SO different and SO individual it's almost a cliche.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that a Plug and Play guy would be interested. Not necessarily full time working pro's (who WILL work on their rigs and tone constantly), but those who gig 2 - 5 times a month who just want an amp, and a guitar. These guys are interested in 'I don't have to think about it'. What's easier than taking a 2U rack, pedalboard, and guitar to your gig?

I AGREE with you 100% that if you want to harness what the Axe-FX can do, you have to be intimately familiar with the innards. Can you agree that there are people don't care a whit for envelope filters, etc? I've seen plenty of great amps that are used to 10% of their capabilities..they set it once and go. Or who buys a Komet, sets it once at a gig, plays out the night. He's bought a Komet because he doesn't want to screw around with programming, tweaking, testing cabs, etc. Wouldn't THAT guy want to have that amp, with the possibility of using 20 others?

I'm simply arguing for the Axe-FX to just be an AMP. Sure, add a drive, add 'verb, add delay, but just be an amp. There should not be a 2 month learning curve on something that could be solved with 20 solid, simple factory presets.

Ron

Yes I agree with you. But to me, if the plug-n-play guys want to keep it simple.... then they just drop an amp and cab in the routing block and be done with it. Spin a few knobs and viola - tone.

The 'naked' banks that a member did is exactly that from what I recall. I'd go as far to say that once the Axe-Exchange is up and fully matured (aka released) that then we'll have resources to just pull down a 'Boss CE-2' chorus preset effect block to drop into the naked amp/cab block.

That's not truly 'plug-n'play' but it is as simple as the Axe-FX, with all it's capabilities, is probably gonna get.

To me that's like asking the space shuttle to be as simple to fly as a Cessna; and frankly you don't get a Space Shuttle if you just want to buzz around on the weekends for a joy-flight.... eh? ;) :D
 
Once again, I think the box can be all things to all people (i.e., in-depth-tweakers and preset user types) if the factory presets were redone (not just tweaked by the master, but also reorganized).

Example:
Bank A: Typical drive/amp/speaker combos
Bank B: Artist and/or Song Sounds
Bank C: Exotic, effect heavy Sounds

I know many weekend warriors who love the sound of my stereo axe/12ma's, and have the $$ to buy; but will never do more than select a preset.
 
m lebofsky said:
Once again, I think the box can be all things to all people (i.e., in-depth-tweakers and preset user types) if the factory presets were redone (not just tweaked by the master, but also reorganized).

Example:
Bank A: Typical drive/amp/speaker combos
Bank B: Artist and/or Song Sounds
Bank C: Exotic, effect heavy Sounds

I know many weekend warriors who love the sound of my stereo axe/12ma's, and have the $$ to buy; but will never do more than select a preset.

So, they wouldn't turn the EQ knobs on an amp they plug into? I don't buy it. Anybody that has half a clue about guitar equipment just knows that they'll probably have to turn the drive, master, and TMB knobs when they plug into someones amp to get a tone they like with their playing style and their guitar.

If they're not too thick-headed to do that, then there's no reason they can't do it now without new preset banks. Select the amp and cab you want, turn the normal knobs quickly, and rock out. There's no reason to make new banks for users that want such simple operation. You don't need a guide for that.

D
 
Last comment and I'll let it go!

Yes, but don't we send up Biologists on the Space Shuttle? They don't need to know how to fly that thing, they just want to USE it to do what they do. (Yes, I twisted your analogy!)

From a marketing standpoint as well: Wouldn't Fractal want to drive business with a plug and play option that uses an Atomic FR? (and the FOOTSWITCH! Woo!) You get this tone OUT OF THE BOX. Buy now!

Regardless, it's all good. Liking the conversation about it. But to reiterate, *if you want the full capability*, you GOTTA learn how to get your tone yourself. No excuses, no shortcuts. I really do look forward to the Farfield IR's. I haven't jumped on the RedWirez because it's a bit on the 'people still working it out' stage (i.e. I'd like to buy ONCE and the editor is not completely stable for me yet,) but once they show, I'll be looking at them seriously.
 
Just a discussion guys; and I'm not against you here. I just see it a little differently and it's good - whether you and I agree on every point or not.

Biologists are not pilots. And all artists are not techs. We do agree on that. There are a million guys out there that play that do NOT want, need or will be bothered with the Axe-FX. It's not a world domination product, it's a specialty product. It's not for everyone. You seem to be working from the 'what's best for Fractal is to make it safe for the masses' when really, that's not the game. We are the end thing, us crazy nut cases out here using this box that came out of some guy's head and hands. We are the vanguard, the ones that took up for $1500+ on a thing that many of us could not even try first (well, for 30 days, then 15 if you put your money up).

I would hazard that more than less of the guys in the first few years were the Artist/Tech tone-freak rig-explorer gear-hounds that already KNEW what they wanted and were not satisfied with what was available already in the market.

To me, that's still the truth. A guy that would happy with a Rat pedal and buys the Axe-FX to do just that is, IMHO, asking for trouble. You don't bring an elephant gun to kill a mouse. ;) :D It'll get the job done, but it'll be a messy affair. If all you want is a piece of pie, you don't buy the whole freaking bakery. :D
 
m lebofsky said:
Once again, I think the box can be all things to all people (i.e., in-depth-tweakers and preset user types) if the factory presets were redone (not just tweaked by the master, but also reorganized).

Example:
Bank A: Typical drive/amp/speaker combos
Bank B: Artist and/or Song Sounds
Bank C: Exotic, effect heavy Sounds

I know many weekend warriors who love the sound of my stereo axe/12ma's, and have the $$ to buy; but will never do more than select a preset.
You guys are some analogy masters!!!! Great comments from everyone... Loving the preset idea!!!
 
Scott Peterson said:
The IR's are a flat out key to getting good tones.

I agree with that statement 100%. After several months of playing with the Ultra, IR's are where I'm spending most of my tweaking time since I've gone directly to the FRFR route since I received it. Jay's far-field IR's (that are shipped with the unit and the few he has made available for download) are working well for me in general depending on the amp that drives them, and the different flavors of tones I'm looking for.

I've spent a ton of time combining amps with IR's (factory, Jay's, Redwirez) in all the permutations of combinations, and have generally found I'm needing to combine and mix them to get where I wish to be. I particularly like how the Redwirez set gives you the ability to move a virtual mike around the room, and there are some great sounding close miked IR's for sure.

I'm eagerly awaiting the Redwirez far-field IR's for further refinement of my pursuits. My longtime goal has been to get a true cabinet sound thru an FRFR device, and that is the Holy Grail for me. I've found going the FRFR route is NOT instant gratification (in terms of replacing a conventional amp/cab for live use that you've been used to for years; you need to kinda think like a recording engineer and of the whole studio chain from amp input thru to the recording device and/or full range 'conventional' speaker with all that entails), is sometimes frustrating, time consuming, etc., but the payoff will be immense when I get 'on top' of going down this road and I feel it's worth going after. It's like driving from LA to NYC in a foggy dark night; you can't see the whole route at one time, but you only need to see the next few hundred feet in front of you and continue on knowing you will get there.

I keep hearing this saying in my head when I get into the richness of the Axe-FX: With great power comes great responsibility. Yea, cheesy I know lol, but, as has been indicated on this thread, this single unit is an entire customizable rig from start to finish. You can play 'amp designer' with it; you can play 'recording engineer' with it. You can try amps/cabs/mikes that you'd may never get the opportunity to. I appreciate the depth and complexity of the AFX and actually like the fact I'm going to be exploring it for years, literally. I've not even really started to play with the stellar control aspects of it (envelope/pitch modulation of parameters, etc.) yet, but can see new, practical uses for them in ways you may not have thought of before to solve problems and achieve new sounds (like Cliff saying to try running a HPF modulated by an envelope to get tight low end tones)...there are latent abilities inside here for sure; this box makes you think outside the box ;-)

As far as patch exchanges, I tried Scott's IR's mixes/patches and Jay's Marshall patch/Marshally IR over the weekend and got several interesting insights as to how other people are creating patches. With some minor tweaking I found them all very usable for my guitars and learned a fair bit about 'the whole picture'. Again, I think the IR's were a main source of goodness here (FDA approved lol) but found it enlightening, and very interesting, to see how others approach the creation of patches and how they adjust the amp parameters.

While I agree that sharing patches may become more complicated and not translate well without the same IR's, guitars, hands, etc., the insight into the 'big picture' will always be instructional. Like Scott says, he learned something about his own patch from a comment from someone else!

While sometimes fiddling with the AFX can be like trying to take a small sip of water from a firehose (and just getting overwhelmed), the payoff is a device whose capabilities you're not likely to ever outgrow.

The AFX is indeed a very complicated, deep, rich instrument that does require time to 'get', but I'm sure I'll be discovering sounds and new ways to use it for years since it does have that great power and potential...I wouldn't have it any other way. Onward we march....
 
Scott Peterson said:
I would hazard that more than less of the guys in the first few years were the Artist/Tech tone-freak rig-explorer gear-hounds that already KNEW what they wanted and were not satisfied with what was available already in the market.

Yup, that's me!! I've been pursuing the 'all-in-one' device for almost 20 years now and have always known exactly what I've wanted in such an animal...and the AFX is the instrument that is finally bringing it home. While I've only had the Ultra for a few months, I've kept a close eye on Fractal since the first units came out a couple of years ago since I felt the entire design philosophy and the engineering of the AFX was 'the real deal'.
 
Sharing patches has helped me learn a ton not only about the Axe Fx but signal chain theory in general. There is no better teacher than to disect what someone else has created and vice versa. I had a member go through one of his patches with me long distance for over an hour one evening. It was awesome and now I am running stuff by him. No one will get someone else's patch to match by simply dropping it into the Axe. There are so many variables to tone caused by wood, pickups, new strings/old strings, oil on your fingers, pick/no pick, on and on....Sharing is learning and discovering. Some of the best patches were created by others who learned from others who shared....so thank you for sharing. Does anyone have a patch for technique that I could load into my brain so I could play like David Gilmour?
 
onatonequest said:
Does anyone have a patch for technique that I could load into my brain so I could play like David Gilmour?

...you need a device like the one in the old Star Trek episode "Spock's Brain" that was called the "Teacher" ;-)
 
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