Are new amps really needed?

[jin1995x]

when you've managed to create some frankenstein of an amp

Whether the amp is tweaked terribly or beautifully, some of use axe purely to make frankenstein of an existing amp, to do whats not possible on any other platform .
once the parameters make sense to you sound wise its really easy.

 

[Chromatizm]

Most likely it was something Fractal could add with fairly low effort. Most of the code is likely to be very much the same as other Marshall models. IMO it's just a worse version of the 50-100W models, just like the real thing.

Doesn't it prove everyone needs "something else"? You like 100w version, I like 20w. I probably could get same results by some advanced parameters tweaking, but then I would need a reference amp and lots of knowledge I don't possess. I'm a simple man, I see guitar - I play. I don't have golden ears.

I can agree that we have enough Marshalls to stop where we are, but can't agree it is a good idea to try to replicate Mezzabarra by same "advanced parameters tweaking". Same reasons, but also - the way it feels under the fingers. Each tube amp feels different, and it's an important part of the whole experience.

And added my experience, thought on that matter. I think 5-6 amps, 5-6
cabs, with all the advanced parameters you can get all the tones out there.

I think you are 95% correct with this, I really do. I absolutely happy with Dumbles and FAS amps, I feel like I'm quite close to the sound I want.

But for me to get there, Cliff needed to model both Dumbles and FAS first. I downloaded pretty much all the presets with these amps, and only a few of them are "working" for me. Also, I can't be nothing but honest here - me personally would never be able to get basic Dumble or Buttery sound by fiddling with Marshalls and Voxes. If you on the level when you can do that, hats off to you sir. But I really need those amps to be modelled first. And yes, I'm quite sure I'd also prefer FAS Dumble to the original Dumble if it ever got released.

Having one amp of each popular brand and five cabs of different types just wouldn't do it for me. I like Buttery much more than the original Budda, it just speaks my language.

 

[laxu]

Doesn't it prove everyone needs "something else"? You like 100w version, I like 20w. I probably could get same results by some advanced parameters tweaking, but then I would need a reference amp and lots of knowledge I don't possess. I'm a simple man, I see guitar - I play. I don't have golden ears.

I can agree that we have enough Marshalls to stop where we are, but can't agree it is a good idea to try to replicate Mezzabarra by same "advanced parameters tweaking". Same reasons, but also - the way it feels under the fingers. Each tube amp feels different, and it's an important part of the whole experience.

My experience is that most amps are just not that unique. Even more so if you run them into the same cab.

Kyle Bull has a nice video on the Mezzabarba MZero and he basically dials the SLO 100 very close, without having any advanced settings, just the amp controls. So there's no magic here, pick the Fractal SLO 100 model and tweak that until you like what you hear.

 

[cole lewis]

Also remember. MANY amps are basically something like...

5150 sound + better cleans and crunch.

Or. Soldano + more options / versatility.

Or.. JCM800 modded. With better cleans.

Can go on and on...

 

[cole lewis]

There are still tons of amps that are genuinely unique, that we don’t have in the Axe.

ADA MP-1, whole lotta people want it in the Axe. You can make actual arguments on how unique it is. Like the JMP-1 there isn’t that many preamp tubes so a lot of what you hear from them is solid state circuitry. That to me is a genuine argument on uniqueness.

Peavey JSX / XXX. Those amps use active EQ, again that makes it actually unique in a way that can be easily quantified.

I still don’t care that much if we get them. Basically zero. At least you can make good arguments for them. They are also easier to get, cheaper than all these new boutique heads. AND schematics are easily available.

If companies like Revv actually take the initiative themselves however and send fractal an amp to model (and potentially schematics themselves as well) who am I to complain? I’m sure I’ll like the models. Will they absolutely blow me away and change my guitar tone forever. Nah.

 

[laxu]

Also remember. MANY amps are basically something like...

5150 sound + better cleans and crunch.

Or. Soldano + more options / versatility.

Or.. JCM800 modded. With better cleans.

Can go on and on...

Absolutely. For example the Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead I had was a Plexi, JCM800 and a Fender Super Reverb in one box. With a built in boost. Which is super cool in a real world amp, but you got models of all those on your Fractal already so you don't need an explicit Bogner GF model to get the same results.

Here's a table for figuring out what would be the closest existing amp model.

What does it sound like?	How many watts is it?	Closest Fractal amp model
Fender style	5-15	Fender Champ, Princeton or Tweed
	~20	Fender Deluxe Reverb
	40-50	Fender Super Reverb, Bandmaster, Vibroverb, Vibrolux
	100	Fender Twin, Mesa Lonestar
Vox style	15-20	Vox AC15, Morgan AC20
	30-50	Vox AC30, Morgan AC20, Matchless DC30
Marshall style, low to mid gain	15-30	Marshall JTM45, Superlead, Fender Bassman
	40-50	Marshall Superlead 50W, JCM800 50W, Fender Bassman
	100	Superlead 100W, JCM800 100W
Marshall style, mid to high gain	40-50	JCM800 50W, Friedman, Bogner, Splawn, EVH
	100	JCM800 100W, JVM, Friedman, Bogner, Soldano, EVH 100W, 5150/6505
High gain, big low end	100+	Mesa Dual Rectifier, Bogner Überschall, Diezel Herbert, ENGL Powerball, PRS Archon
High gain, tight	100+	Mesa Mark, JP2C, Fryette Deliverance

There's a lot of amp models not covered here, not because they are totally unique, but because I am not good at pigeonholing them like this.

This is not some exhaustive list or using Fractal's model names, it's meant to highlight that if you know your "archetype" amp sounds, you can find something that comes pretty close to whatever is not modeled in the Fractal already.

 

[Romo82]

There are still tons of amps that are genuinely unique, that we don’t have in the Axe.

ADA MP-1, whole lotta people want it in the Axe. You can make actual arguments on how unique it is. Like the JMP-1 there isn’t that many preamp tubes so a lot of what you hear from them is solid state circuitry. That to me is a genuine argument on uniqueness.

Peavey JSX / XXX. Those amps use active EQ, again that makes it actually unique in a way that can be easily quantified.

I still don’t care that much if we get them. Basically zero. At least you can make good arguments for them. They are also easier to get, cheaper than all these new boutique heads. AND schematics are easily available.

If companies like Revv actually take the initiative themselves however and send fractal an amp to model (and potentially schematics themselves as well) who am I to complain? I’m sure I’ll like the models. Will they absolutely blow me away and change my guitar tone forever. Nah.

Leon Todd has covered getting the ADA MP-1 tone well. I also requested it to be added before LT directed me to the "Big Hair" model which is pretty much the MP-1 with the undesirable aspects removed.

 

[cole lewis]

Leon Todd has covered getting the ADA MP-1 tone well. I also requested it to be added before LT directed me to the "Big Hair" model which is pretty much the MP-1 with the undesirable aspects removed.

In reality the big hair model probably sounds better than the real preamps.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I’ll always be stoked to see a new amp pop up. Some of the most fun I’ve had with a Fractal unit is exploring amps I’ve never played before, even if they’re just a variation of 10 other amps that already exist. They all respond/react differently to different guitars and it’s one of those things that I don’t know until I know. Sure, I can tweak something and make it into something else, but if I don’t experience the something else before hand, I don’t know what I’m ‘missing’.

I initially didn’t really care about the SV20, thinking “Yeah, I already know which Marshalls I dig”, then I loaded it up and now I’m considering buying the actual amp because I love it so much.

As with most discussion involving updating/adding more to Fractal land, I’m already getting more tones out of it than I ever even knew I’d want to get and I’d be fine if a new amp were never introduced, but I’ll absolutely try every single one of them when they are!

 

[AlexGuitar]

Hi there, @northern_fox,

Maybe I can give some insight, in reply to your last post?



Hmm. Maybe there are some who resist new amps outright. But I'm not in that category. I suspect most of us who think Cliff can afford to deprioritize adding new amps aren't saying, "No, none, no more, never!"

It's more like: "How many people are clamoring for a Digitech FreqOut in the Axe III, vs. how many people are clamoring for a 20-watt B.C. Rich Devastator?" The former would seem to be a higher priority than the latter; so, if I discover the B.C. Rich showing up in a firmware when the FreqOut still hasn't yet, I'm going to think maybe time and effort could have been better-spent.

So that's the first hurdle an amp has to get over, before I find myself saying, "Wow, glad Cliff & Co. spent time giving us that!"

There's also a second hurdle it has to get over, before my enthusiasm brims-over in anticipation of a new amp. That hurdle is: "Is this new one unique enough that its sound (when fed through Cab XYZ, or when certain params are tweaked) even distinguishable from the sound of an existing amp (when it is fed through a slightly-different cab, perhaps, or when its params are tweaked in a slightly different way)?"

That last item may be hard-to-follow, so please read it carefully. The point is that unless they are amps which provide very unique tones, we may be approaching a point where 5 new amps amounts to little more than 5 new ways to make sounds you could already make. That's okay...IF you don't already know how to make them with the existing amps. But if you do, then you wonder if the time spent on the new amps couldn't have been better used.


Oh, wait a sec, there. If you're adding pedals to the mix, you're changing the conversation!

My only objections to new amps traditionally have been because I'd rather have had a new other effect (i.e., a pedal). That means I wouldn't ever be heard objecting to both new amps and new pedals. I don't know of anyone who says that!


Yeah, I agree. If someone says that, I would dispute it. I haven't ever objected on that basis. A happy player matters.


Okay, now you and I are vociferously agreeing with one another.

It's precisely that kind of missing pedal that makes me wonder, "How many of the new amps from the last few updates would I have given up, to get the pedals we've Wish-Listed for a year or more?"

Now, let me stipulate:

• We're spoiled, and shouldn't complain, and Fractal's awesome: I'm grateful for all the updates we get.
• If we had both the pedals and the amps, I wouldn't begrudge anyone the extra amps, even if I think they're possibly redundant in sound sometimes.

So it's just matter of priority, for me.

Best to you,
-- Dr. D

+ 1 on the freqout - I think I remember seeing somewhere that it would be pretty difficult to do, but if it could be pulled off, that would be amazing. Especially since playing at lower volumes (as many of us tend to do with modelers) takes out some of that glorious feedback.

 

[Romo82]

My experience is that most amps are just not that unique. Even more so if you run them into the same cab.

Kyle Bull has a nice video on the Mezzabarba MZero and he basically dials the SLO 100 very close, without having any advanced settings, just the amp controls. So there's no magic here, pick the Fractal SLO 100 model and tweak that until you like what you hear.

Agreed, this is what I was getting at in my earlier post. I'm very sure its possible to recreate these slight variations of amps using the current models available and the massive parameter adjustments on hand. A little research to understand what tonal affect a parameter typically has and then start adjusting and see if it makes the change a person is looking for. Or even if they dont want to research a parameter, just adjust things and see what the result is, nothings going to break or isn't reversable so why wouldn't you explore?

People get a bit hung up on these new amps that are modded versions of other amps. I remember a while back, someone posting about a "Messhuggah Amp" (not the latest Fortin one, I think it was a Hermansson mod) and how it was so crucially unique sounding and needed to be brought into the FAS but the clips posted of the live amp sounded nothing special or unobtainable from what we have, to my ears. I think people just prefer to have things provided in whole rather than piece it together which is fine however FAS have to weigh up the ROI on whether an entire new model is worth it if it can be achieved through amp "building".

It would be good to see some one do a thorough video on this, if nothing else than to give people an understanding of the adjustable amp parameters and how they can be used.

 

[laxu]

Peavey JSX / XXX. Those amps use active EQ, again that makes it actually unique in a way that can be easily quantified.

You can set the tonestack to an active EQ. Besides that it's just finding a suitable model. Also crank up the compression because those amps have a lot of it.

 

[cole lewis]

You can set the tonestack to an active EQ. Besides that it's just finding a suitable model. Also crank up the compression because those amps have a lot of it.

I was just trying to come up on the top of my head of reasons for amps being modeled other than “this YouTube video sounds cool”.