Are Amp Makers Adapting To Cliff's Techniques?

[shasha]

 

[luke]

It seems that some amp makers aren't revealing their schematics to the public. Since this is a thing that Cliff relies on for modeling an amp, I wonder if they are catching on to this new world of modeling and adapting to it? Interesting to see what happens in the future with real tube amps and Fractal Audio.

The future will not include tube amps in any significant fashion, just as buggy whips have faded. Tube manufacturing is a highly toxic en devour, as such, to do it correctly is very expensive. The only way for tube manufacturing to make economic sense is economies of scale, which do not exist without military demand. Guitarists live in a bubble where they believe there are so many other guitarists, there is sufficient demand to create a profitable industry, when the reality is, non-military tube use never exceeded 5% of production, even when every TV and radio had tubes as well.

 

[groovenut]

The future will not include tube amps in any significant fashion, ...

This has been a predominant thought since the invention of the semiconductor and yet the tube amp persists. It would appear that even the very small market of tube users is still enough to keep tube manufacture profitable as long as those using them are willing to pay the rising cost of the product. The recent glut of low cost tube amps, made in some of the same countries that currently manufacture the tubes, may help sustain tube production. Getting tube amps into the hands of more players = more tube sales. Tubes have to be replaced as they age. Even if the price of tubes were to double it would still most likely be acceptable to users to maintain the sound and platform they have become accustomed to. In the grander scheme there will always be those who believe tube tech is superior sounding and choose to use it over whatever comes along, and be willing to pay whatever price needed. Not to mention those whom believe (players) and advertise (companies) that only a tube can sound and feel like a tube. This fact is born out by the somewhat recent reproduction of classic old highly prized tube designs like Telefunken, Tung-Sol, and Mullard. If it weren't profitable or at least believed to be profitable, I cant imagine companies purchasing design licensing, tooling, and materials to start building these tubes again. How it all plays out is beyond my future telling skills but as an AxeFx user and a tube amp user/designer/builder, I'm liking the world where they coexist and I can choose what fits the demands of each given situation best My 2 cents...

 

[Cagey]

The future will not include tube amps in any significant fashion, just as buggy whips have faded. Tube manufacturing is a highly toxic en devour, as such, to do it correctly is very expensive. The only way for tube manufacturing to make economic sense is economies of scale, which do not exist without military demand. Guitarists live in a bubble where they believe there are so many other guitarists, there is sufficient demand to create a profitable industry, when the reality is, non-military tube use never exceeded 5% of production, even when every TV and radio had tubes as well.

I agree. There are only a couple/few manufacturers left, and they're in countries where the military is still backward enough to be using tube-based tech. I also doubt anybody is building new tooling/manufacturing capacity - I'd wager they're keeping things running with duct tape, baling wire and prayer. I saw a video somewhere from one of the amp manufacturers where they have to test the tubes before they install them because the yield on the things is terrible. They have about a 75% fail rate right out of the box. Even the ones that pass are fairly inconsistent, which I suspect is why changing tubes is so popular. It's not so much that one brand is better than another as much as you just can't predict what the tube is going to do. Simply changing them changes the tonal characteristics of the amp, regardless of the brand. And since all the brands come from the same few places, that's no surprise.

 

[Rotti]

Here's words straight from Cliff, "The amp alone is useless without schematics."

True, he did say that, but then again, we have a VH4 in the AFX. Not many have seen real Diezel schematics. I have a copy of the schems for the VH4, and it's loaded with pitfalls - omissions, what must be purposeful errors and/or design changes over the years... I can only imagine at least SOME reverse engineering must have taken place with the physical amp present, and on that amp in particular it must have been a monumental pain in the ass.

...but WELL worth it!

Ya...........Mister Poopie Pants............

Moke is on FIRE today!

 

[Cagey]

True, he did say that, but then again, we have a VH4 in the AFX. Not many have seen real Diezel schematics. I have a copy of the schems for the VH4, and it's loaded with pitfalls - omissions, what must be purposeful errors and/or design changes over the years... I can only imagine at least SOME reverse engineering must have taken place with the physical amp present, and on that amp in particular it must have been a monumental pain in the ass.

The other thing that can be done is to simply instrument the behavior. You gotta know Cliff's got a generous mittenful of signal generators, ammeters, oscilloscopes, loads, etc. so if you want to mimic a power supply and don't have a schematic, you can just feed the amp various signals at various power levels, measure the PS outputs, and reproduce that behavior. I'm sure other circuits can be subjected to the same scrutiny.

 

[zenaxe]

It seems that some amp makers aren't revealing their schematics to the public. Since this is a thing that Cliff relies on for modeling an amp, I wonder if they are catching on to this new world of modeling and adapting to it? Interesting to see what happens in the future with real tube amps and Fractal Audio.

Don't worry. At this point, tube amps are fairly well understood. LOL. It is incredibly unlikely that someone would design an amp that is so novel that the existing models of the axe would not for the most part cover its ground and yet it still sounded/behaved musically. Every amp has its own trade offs at the design level and even individual specimens across schematics. But, we have such deep control, the only real limit with the tools we already have at hand is your personal ability to dial in presets. IMHO.

Also, there is the whole tone match thing.

Unless your purpose in life is to collect amps, you're covered. Don't get me wrong, I love amp models and want MOAR! But, they are gravy at this point.

 

[shemihazazel]

The tube amp is dead. Long live the tube amp.

 

[electronpirate]

Tube amps will always be around.

I feel like Manufacturers have a love/hate thing going on with modelers. In some cases, it drove business to them (they sounded better than any modeler,) but now the technology is there that the sale of tube amps will have to inevitably go down.

I don't see a scenario where they are eliminated. As we've seen from Artists, a modeler is a suitable replacement for a tube amp under many circumstances (fly dates, short tours, etc), but many still roll out the big iron. Now THAT MAY CHANGE in time, but I don't ever see a future in which tubes are eliminated, or even relegated to 'oh, look! A covered wagon!' status.

IMO.

 

[zenaxe]

+1. To the tube amps will always be around crowd. At least during my lifetime... I love my AxeFx and have gotten rid of my personal tube amps but truth: They're sexy and sexy never goes out of style, even if it is not practical.

 

[Loquenau]

I was talking with my guitar store guy yesterday, who is an old-ish Marshall hand, and he said straight out that he'd use a Kemper, or even the new Fender (and rather inexpensive) modeling amp, than a tube amp (combo, let alone head and cab). (He doesn't have enough direct experience with the Axe.) And not mainly because of the portability, but because they sound and feel good enough to him. I think, until mass-arrangement is at will, tube designs will fade from existence.

In either case: time to start making new designs. For example virtual tubes that behave according to the physics you wish. I wait.

 

[Lionheart]

*Insert controversial video that was posted with tongue-in-cheek*

 

[Cagey]

I enjoy his videos as well - it's kinda like listening to Rush Limbaugh. Sorta nutty, but embarrassingly real. I'll tell ya, though - I'm sure I've heard worse recordings; I just can't remember when. You'd think somebody who purports to know so much about sound could pull off a YouTube video that didn't sound like elephant farts from one end to the other.

 

[Stratoblaster]

I'm generally more interested these days in the many options modelling is opening up for creating new 'amps'. There is a wealth of endless customization in the advanced parameters of the II that will be explored by users for years and I look forward to some killer 'new' amps users will 'design'. There is just so much potential in the II to go far beyond what any tube amp could possibly deliver...interesting times for sure.

 

[Cagey]

There's that, and the idea that people will play with what they have and do well with it. You don't necessarily have to have the ultimate $50K Dumble - if you create good music with a Pignose, what's wrong with that? This whole idea that tubes are the only things that sound good is bogus. I mean, they do sound good, but it's not the only sound that's good. Lotsa sounds are good.

 

[Lionheart]

I'm generally more interested these days in the many options modelling is opening up for creating new 'amps'. There is a wealth of endless customization in the advanced parameters of the II that will be explored by users for years and I look forward to some killer 'new' amps users will 'design'. There is just so much potential in the II to go far beyond what any tube amp could possibly deliver...interesting times for sure.

Exactly. It makes me want to go get some kind of education in amp manufacturing, so that I can "really" build my own amps within the Axe without just being a trial and error knob twister.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

Okay so a guy with under a hundred posts dropping K bombs and SpectreSoundStudios links. Hmm... can I question your motives or does that make me a douche?

1st of all the Axe-Fx II already has all amps that matter and amp manufacturers are also trying to emulate old amp sounds most of the time so will there be any significant new amps to model anyways?

2nd Kemper sucks and that's why you're on this forum and that's why you bought or will buy an Axe-Fx. Tough words and irony in that sentence for sure but if you've ever profiled a real amp with the KPA you would know that the Kemper is not doing the same thing as the Axe-Fx. Kemper is basically the same thing as Tone Matching; getting a snapshot of the sound you're using. And to be honest I got closer with iZotope Ozone match EQ than Kemper.

Sorry for being harsh.

 

[Lionheart]

Okay so a guy with under a hundred posts dropping K bombs and SpectreSoundStudios links. Hmm... can I question your motives or does that make me a douche?

Well, first off, Clark. Look at our join dates. We're only 3 months apart from the time we joined this forum. Just because you spent more time on here making posts and comments doesn't make you more "trustworthy". As a matter of fact, I seem to recall a few years back that you were the one around here pissing people off quite frequently with your posts and arrogance (which seems like much hasn't changed).

The reason why I hadn't posted much around here is because I worked shift-work. However, I have recently been diagnosed with a rare disorder and am now disabled. That is why my presence is more prominent around here now.

I have no evil motives around here. I'm an Axe fan through and through. As for the SpectreSoundStudios video, I thought it was tongue-in-cheek.

Oh. And, yes. That does make you a douche.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

Well, first off, Clark. Look at our join dates. We're only 3 months apart from the time we joined this forum. Just because you spent more time on here making posts and comments doesn't make you more "trustworthy". As a matter of fact, I seem to recall a few years back that you were the one around here pissing people off quite frequently with your posts and arrogance (which seems like much hasn't changed).

The reason why I hadn't posted much around here is because I worked shift-work. However, I have recently been diagnosed with a rare disorder and am now disabled. That is why my presence is more prominent around here now.

I have no evil motives around here. I'm an Axe fan through and through. As for the SpectreSoundStudios video, I thought it was tongue-in-cheek.

Oh. And, yes. That does make you a douche.

Well sorry bro I'm definitely one of the more sarcastic and misunderstood guys on this forum.

I can be a douche at times but I try to do it only at the expense of comedy since there should always be things that make you smile in life no matter what the cost.

But you are correct... I spend way too much time in here.

 

[vinnieRice]

The future will not include tube amps in any significant fashion, just as buggy whips have faded. Tube manufacturing is a highly toxic en devour, as such, to do it correctly is very expensive. The only way for tube manufacturing to make economic sense is economies of scale, which do not exist without military demand. Guitarists live in a bubble where they believe there are so many other guitarists, there is sufficient demand to create a profitable industry, when the reality is, non-military tube use never exceeded 5% of production, even when every TV and radio had tubes as well.

This is complete nonsense I'm afraid. There's been no military demand for 30 years at least, and yet tube manufacturing still exists. The demand for tubes has actually increased in recent years.