Another Gapless Switching Thread... Solved! (Post #136)

[My name is mud]

So he will use 2 amps one clean one dirt and then add a drive pedal for crunch or a slightly gainer profile for the chorus

That’s exactly what I do on all my presets . With 3 scenes and bypassed effects that you can turn on/off with the fc12, you can cover everything . Then …. If you really want to change amp every minutes… but who does that .

 

[State of Epicicity]

One thing I forgot to mention and one to correct, because it's been a while: to run eight amps gaplessly in the way I describe you have to use scene ignore for both amp blocks, and just select the channels only of the block you're about to switch to, then select the channel of the multiplexer when you're ready finally to switch. Don't even worry about scenes. You can then use scenes to add scene controllers to get really funky with it, reducing the damping all the way. I know you don't want anything more involved, like you said, but this is a way to do it with eight amps, and to me the complexity is worth it. Whatever works for you.

 

[juliatk]

It can be done, with some limitations on the sequence of scenes you use. Here's a clip of switching through 3 different amps when switching from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3.



There are many ways to get rid of the gap. At some point though, you have to contend with the sudden change of timbre, which, depending on what you're doing, can be as noticeable as a gap.

Now that’s intriguing. Thanks a lot for that. I will fiddle with that for a bit and likely have follow up questions. Thanks!

 

[juliatk]

One thing I forgot to mention and one to correct, because it's been a while: to run eight amps gaplessly in the way I describe you have to use scene ignore for both amp blocks, and just select the channels only of the block you're about to switch to, then select the channel of the multiplexer when you're ready finally to switch. Don't even worry about scenes. You can then use scenes to add scene controllers to get really funky with it, reducing the damping all the way. I know you don't want anything more involved, like you said, but this is a way to do it with eight amps, and to me the complexity is worth it. Whatever works for you.

Thanks for the advice on scene ignore. Very good callout. Thanks.

 

[juliatk]

I'm also obsessed with gapless switching, and I created a thread on it with my methods. I don't think it can be done with one press of a foot switch, but with two. What I recommend with the worst case scenario you outlined would involve creating channel switching buttons on your FC12 in addition to the scene switching buttons; you can set up two layouts for this to make it easier, have each scene button take you to the channel layout automatically, and have each channel button take you to the scene layout automatically, have it programmed as a per preset layout using overrides for each song if you'd like.

Anyway, you're on scene 1 amp 1ch A, so you switch to scene 2 amp 2 ch A; no gap, like you said. Now, to get gaplessly from scene 2 to scene 3 takes two taps: first press a button to change amp 1 from channel A to channel B while you're still playing amp 2, then switch to scene 3. Continue this pattern for other amp switching where necessary: if whatever amp you're switching to us already on your desired channel on the other amp block, just switch to its scene; if the amp you're switching to is not on the right channel, just switch its channel before you select its scene. That's how I've done it gaplessly with eight different amp models. FWIW, I've never encountered a gap switching cab block channels.

Best of luck!

Yup, read that thread thoroughly. Just a bit more complicated than I’d hoped for. I’m primarily focused on trying not to suck at guitar. The more tap dancing I must do, the more difficult that task becomes for me. ;-)

 

[juliatk]

The idea that a single set will benefit from 4, 6 or 8 amps is perfectly backwards to me. It will be worse. It's a bad idea.
The level matching? The EQ changes? All that impact on the rest of the band and the mix? Digital doesn't make that go away.

The answer here is one or two amps tops and this other thing we have called... pedals. Pedals are fun!
The galaxy of pedals and FX we have is amazing. Running pedals thru an amp gives you a lot of variety and ways to peak out without the risk of resetting your tone stack and place in the mix.

It's what the pros do for a good reason and it's not to avoid preset lag! It's a lot of variety without messing up the core mix.
We see this even in pro presets from touring artists. Their place in the mix is more important than their exact tone b.c the audience hears the band. This is so even in gunslinger acts like Satriani; The guitar is the center of the show. So what does Joe have? Two amps and some pedals. In Joe's case its really one amp twice with slightly different settings b/c every amp is a little different. The second amp is as much a backup. He doesn't need it for the set. I've been backstage at his shows and talked with his tech fwiw.

People that think this is only true in stadiums don't see enough club shows IMHO. Mix always matters. Mix matters more than your tone.
People won't ever remember the difference between, say, Plexi and BE100 but they'll remember "he randomly got too loud / too quiet" real well.

It appears people may be misinterpreting my ask here. I don’t use 8 amps in a single song, but yes, if I did, I would most certainly address the volume and EQ. I’ve literally been handling that problem without issue for 20 years now without incident. I attempted to clearly state this is just a worst-case scenario and made up to understand the limitations of the unit. I went to college for recording engineering and music production and still mix and master band albums. Getting the mix right between presets is not a problem for me.

The Edge is a pro. Ever seen the pile of amps behind him on stage? Most albums and songs we all love use multiple amps, cabs, mics, preamps, pedals, etc. I’m just seeking to recreate that on stage with the greatest level of precision possible.

I forced myself to evolve 20 years ago into a new way of doing things that eliminated traditional amps and pedals on stage. Many artists have since made that evolution as well. Many of them use fractal gear to do so, primarily because it’s predictable, reliable and provides identically consistent tone night after night without having to break your back hauling hundreds of pounds of gear or worry about blowing a tube or if it’s too hot on stage for your germanium transistor in your vintage tube screamer to sound just right, etc. Oh yeah, as an added bonus, it sounds kick ass too!

I get that what I’m asking may not make sense to everybody if they come from that traditional backdrop, but this is my desired workflow and I’m currently struggling to get the fractal to work in that preferred way. Why step on 4 pedals if you can step on one instead while still achieving the same result? This is why the scene or snapshot was born. If the product allows me to load 8 amps in a preset, why not allow me to gaplessly switch between them in any order necessary?

Realistically speaking, yes, 50% of the time I’ll use 1 amp within a song, 40% of the time I’ll use 2 amps and the other 10% 3 amps. But even using 1 amp and switching all of the parameters necessary using the channels feature, which appears to be the primary design intention of the unit, cannot be done gaplessly or certainly not as easily as I would desire. 4 scene controllers are not enough to handle my needs without going through overly complex gyrations.

in the Helix, you get 64 controllers per preset. With that, I can make one amp sound like at least 4 to 5 different amp channels with no gaps. Using 2 amps, generally the max allowed in a single Helix preset, I can get the sound of 8 different amp channels, still with no gaps. I’m hopeful there’s a way to get that with the fractal without gaps too, so I can sell the Helix and move forward with the same capabilities, but with better tone.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

 

[Randalljax]

It appears people may be misinterpreting my ask here. I don’t use 8 amps in a single song, but yes, if I did, I would most certainly address the volume and EQ. I’ve literally been handling that problem without issue for 20 years now without incident. I attempted to clearly state this is just a worst-case scenario and made up to understand the limitations of the unit. I went to college for recording engineering and music production and still mix and master band albums. Getting the mix right between presets is not a problem for me.

The Edge is a pro. Ever seen the pile of amps behind him on stage? Most albums and songs we all love use multiple amps, cabs, mics, preamps, pedals, etc. I’m just seeking to recreate that on stage with the greatest level of precision possible.

I forced myself to evolve 20 years ago into a new way of doing things that eliminated traditional amps and pedals on stage. Many artists have since made that evolution as well. Many of them use fractal gear to do so, primarily because it’s predictable, reliable and provides identically consistent tone night after night without having to break your back hauling hundreds of pounds of gear or worry about blowing a tube or if it’s too hot on stage for your germanium transistor in your vintage tube screamer to sound just right, etc. Oh yeah, as an added bonus, it sounds kick ass too!

I get that what I’m asking may not make sense to everybody if they come from that traditional backdrop, but this is my desired workflow and I’m currently struggling to get the fractal to work in that preferred way. Why step on 4 pedals if you can step on one instead while still achieving the same result? This is why the scene or snapshot was born. If the product allows me to load 8 amps in a preset, why not allow me to gaplessly switch between them in any order necessary?

Realistically speaking, yes, 50% of the time I’ll use 1 amp within a song, 40% of the time I’ll use 2 amps and the other 10% 3 amps. But even using 1 amp and switching all of the parameters necessary using the channels feature, which appears to be the primary design intention of the unit, cannot be done gaplessly or certainly not as easily as I would desire. 4 scene controllers are not enough to handle my needs without going through overly complex gyrations.

in the Helix, you get 64 controllers per preset. With that, I can make one amp sound like at least 4 to 5 different amp channels with no gaps. Using 2 amps, generally the max allowed in a single Helix preset, I can get the sound of 8 different amp channels, still with no gaps. I’m hopeful there’s a way to get that with the fractal without gaps too, so I can sell the Helix and move forward with the same capabilities, but with better tone.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

Then unfortunately if there is no way to do what you want you would have to stick with what has been working for you
We all have to make some compromises , for me as a guitarist
I would rather find a work around than comprise my tone , but that’s me , your needs are different and to you being able to have a simple switching solution outweighs the benefits of gaining the better sound in this case

 

[juliatk]

Then unfortunately if there is no way to do what you want you would have to stick with what has been working for you
We all have to make some compromises , for me as a guitarist
I would rather find a work around than comprise my tone , but that’s me , your needs are different and to you being able to have a simple switching solution outweighs the benefits of gaining the better sound in this case

You’re spot on in your assessment. I’m greedy though, I want it all and I want it now.

 

[State of Epicicity]

And not to throw a ridiculous method into the mix, but of course you could use two Axe-FX III units and a switch box, as I believe some pros do too. Still less gear than The Edge, e.g., but still some tap dancing. I just can't think of any other way.

And I have found weird pairings of amp models that do not cause an audible gap; I cannot at all remember which ones specifically, but I generally start with a traditional preset with gaps and make block libraries from that, level matching in that initial preset first, e.g., and I've just found it randomly. If you happened upon one of those pairings between two channels, you could have them on the same amp block, still use the multiplexer, add if you only use three amps in a song, there'd be no tap dancing, just one press.

For three amp songs I'd try every order of channel switching first in your case, to see if one switch between channels might randomly be gapless, just in case it may help with the heavy lifting. And keep in mind, it might only be gapless in one direction, e.g., going from ch A to B but not from B to A. Anyway, something you could try.

And the other way finally is a one method for sure: only two amp models, but also use scene controllers. That way you have a ton of tonal variation available to you, and no tap dancing at all. You do not use scene ignore for the amp blocks that way. And you don't have to use my spreadsheet from my thread; you can just sign the controller and go by ear in the modifier page. I just find the spreadsheet makes copying my settings very fast with the scene controller percentages.

No big deal whatever route you go, and again, best of luck with it.

 

[GlennO]

in the Helix, you get 64 controllers per preset. With that, I can make one amp sound like at least 4 to 5 different amp channels with no gaps. Using 2 amps, generally the max allowed in a single Helix preset, I can get the sound of 8 different amp channels, still with no gaps. I’m hopeful there’s a way to get that with the fractal without gaps too, so I can sell the Helix and move forward with the same capabilities, but with better tone.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

Don't feel like you need to apologize for asking for gapless amp type switching. It's a very common request. On the Helix, Line6 went so far to accommodate this need that they offer a mode where you can do completely gapless switching, even when switching presets, but only if you're willing to sacrifice half of your cpu capacity. It's not out of the question that we'd see a feature like that on the Axe-FX. After all, the low-latency reduced-oversampling was introduced recently to sacrifice quality for performance. But, I'd say it would be unlikely.

As far as using scene controllers (the analog to Helix snapshots) to do what you want, it's unlikely the number of parameters will grow to match the number of adjustable parameters you see on the Helix. The UI design just won't allow for that many parameters without becoming impossibly awkward.

One possible enhancement that could help: if switching channels in the amp block while keeping the amp type the same could be done without a gap. That would allow you to change an arbitrary number of amp block parameters, similar to what you're used to on the Helix, to get the variety of tones you're looking for without a gap. TBH, I'm not sure why the Axe-FX has a gap in this case, so this might be a possible solution that could happen in the future.

Otherwise, I think your only option is the technique I demonstrated above. That gives you up to eight amp types per preset, each selectable with a single press, without gaps.

 

[FPFL]

in the Helix, you get 64 controllers per preset. With that, I can make one amp sound like at least 4 to 5 different amp channels with no gaps. Using 2 amps, generally the max allowed in a single Helix preset, I can get the sound of 8 different amp channels, still with no gaps. I’m hopeful there’s a way to get that with the fractal without gaps too, so I can sell the Helix and move forward with the same capabilities, but with better tone.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

Yes and the Helix is audibly worse in every A/B I've ever done on responsiveness to playing. It also doesn't even have one good JCM800 model which I find baffling.

The trade-off is very clear. Nothing does everything best b/c doing certain things comes at a cost. Cliff has talked about this before.
Yes, Cliff could run circles around the switching the Helix does - but it would force trade-offs in quality which I'm 100% against.

Your needs are a monster of your own making, more than The Edge himself does live in a song when he plays for a zillion people in the mega-dome. I say this without any malice and a smile, as it is a bit comical to me that you compare your wants to a living legend and still want -more- than he does live, gapless.

How many guitars do you bring to show? I'm assuming one b/c anything else would create a gap.

Good luck with whatever gets you there. Happy Holidays!

 

[juliatk]

Yes and the Helix is audibly worse in every A/B I've ever done on responsiveness to playing. It also doesn't even have one good JCM800 model which I find baffling.

The trade-off is very clear. Nothing does everything best b/c doing certain things comes at a cost. Cliff has talked about this before.
Yes, Cliff could run circles around the switching the Helix does - but it would force trade-offs in quality which I'm 100% against.

Your needs are a monster of your own making, more than The Edge himself does live in a song when he plays for a zillion people in the mega-dome. I say this without any malice and a smile, as it is a bit comical to me that you compare your wants to a living legend and still want -more- than he does live, gapless.

How many guitars do you bring to show? I'm assuming one b/c anything else would create a gap.

Good luck with whatever gets you there. Happy Holidays!

No matter how much I try to explain, you are simply not getting the point of my original post whatsoever. Let me quote an excerpt from my original post for you again: "Completely made up worst-case scenario I can think of is below - assume they all have corresponding cabs as well:" That's right, I'm just trying to understand what is possible with the Axe III. It is highly unlikely that I'll ever use 8 amps in a single song. But let's say I did, why do you care so much? Why do you consider this an affront to all that is sacred and holy in your world?

You're right, for all intents and purposes, I do only bring one guitar to a show, even though I have a lot of guitars. A PRS 594 with soapbars and a single backup in case I break a string only - so in other words, the backup never comes out. This is for the same reason - to massively simplify my rig for load-in and load-out and to minimize breaks in between songs that can make the band lose momentum when the house is a rockin'.

I never said I was any good. In fact, in my own eyes, I totally suck at guitar. I've put my 10,000 hours of expertise toward recording, mixing, mastering and getting good tone. I don't even enjoy playing live, but I do it for my other bandmates who enjoy that sort of thing. But if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it the way I want to do it. Just like I'm sure you do!

Would you appreciate me telling you that only real guitar players use a single guitar plugged directly into a single channel combo amp with no pedals and anybody who uses anything more sucks because they're hiding behind their effects because they can't play well enough to entertain with just their fingers? Because there are definitely those out there with that philosophy. In their eyes, you totally suck also, so it's all relative my friend.

It makes me chuckle that I posted something looking for help with how to do something technical on this forum and you've spent your energies trying to talk me out of what I want to do or attempt to belittle me instead of simply offering to help or simply remaining silent because we are clearly from different worlds of live guitar-rig philosophy. Why do you feel it's necessary to attack some random poster on a forum looking for help? Another quote from my original post for you: "This is my first post with this thread - be gentle with me. " Oh well, I gave it a shot.

Let's say I go old-school, which by the way, I could. I have a dozen or so tube amps and a decent sized pedalboard with the usual trimmings. If I switched between real tube amps on stage, would there be a gap? Nope. You make it sound like I'm asking for something otherworldly. I am not. When the Edge switched his ginormous pre-Fractal all-component rig on stage to any of his giant tower of amps, does he hear a gap? Nope.

Yes, I get the notion of tradeoffs. Cliff clearly knows what he's doing, that's why we buy his stuff. If he didn't, we wouldn't - same as Line 6, Kemper, Neural DSP, Strymon, etc. I was hoping since the Axe III and FM9 are much newer than a Helix and Kemper that Moore's Law (look that up if you're not a computer geek like I am) would finally allow for better tone and gapless switching.

Better gather the pitchforks and torches now to have me burned at the stake for such heresy! What a jerk I am! It's a good thing you're here though to keep this forum in check for people who have a different philosophy from you. Blessed art thou my brother.

 

[juliatk]

Don't feel like you need to apologize for asking for gapless amp type switching. It's a very common request. On the Helix, Line6 went so far to accommodate this need that they offer a mode where you can do completely gapless switching, even when switching presets, but only if you're willing to sacrifice half of your cpu capacity. It's not out of the question that we'd see a feature like that on the Axe-FX. After all, the low-latency reduced-oversampling was introduced recently to sacrifice quality for performance. But, I'd say it would be unlikely.

As far as using scene controllers (the analog to Helix snapshots) to do what you want, it's unlikely the number of parameters will grow to match the number of adjustable parameters you see on the Helix. The UI design just won't allow for that many parameters without becoming impossibly awkward.

One possible enhancement that could help: if switching channels in the amp block while keeping the amp type the same could be done without a gap. That would allow you to change an arbitrary number of amp block parameters, similar to what you're used to on the Helix, to get the variety of tones you're looking for without a gap. TBH, I'm not sure why the Axe-FX has a gap in this case, so this might be a possible solution that could happen in the future.

Otherwise, I think your only option is the technique I demonstrated above. That gives you up to eight amp types per preset, each selectable with a single press, without gaps.

Thanks Glenn. I greatly appreciate your response and genuine help. I'll explore that patch you provided later on today.

 

[Dave Merrill]

That clip has 3 amp types, switched as you go from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3. So, two switches. Two presses of a button, which I believe is what the OP is asking for. You can add more if you want more amp types in a single preset. No gap.

Not at my Axe. Just to confirm, is your preset alternating amp blocks, and changing channels on the one the not currently hearing? That's the only way I know if to do this without scene controllers.

 

[GlennO]

Not at my Axe. Just to confirm, is your preset alternating amp blocks, and changing channels on the one the not currently hearing? That's the only way I know if to do this without scene controllers.

That's right. As you know, scene controllers can't change the amp type, but with this channel technique you get 8 amp types per preset without gaps.

 

[unix-guy]

You’re spot on in your assessment. I’m greedy though, I want it all and I want it now.

Buy multiple units, then... Problem solved!

 

[unix-guy]

Let's say I go old-school, which by the way, I could. I have a dozen or so tube amps and a decent sized pedalboard with the usual trimmings. If I switched between real tube amps on stage, would there be a gap? Nope.

I agree with the bulk of your post... But one thing to consider is that switching Amps is different than switching channels on an Amp.

In the Fractal world, switching Amps is like a combo of those 2.

If you switch channels on a real amp you will almost certainly also hear an audio gap of about the same amount of time.

By the way, another option you could experiment with is to use a Mixer block instead of a Multiplexer and "morph" between Amp blocks with Scene Controllers as modifiers and a small amount of "damping" to smooth the transitions...

I keep planning to play around with it but I don't really have a need do that...

 

[juliatk]

I agree with the bulk of your post... But one thing to consider is that switching Amps is different than switching channels on an Amp.

In the Fractal world, switching Amps is like a combo of those 2.

If you switch channels on a real amp you will almost certainly also hear an audio gap of about the same amount of time.

By the way, another option you could experiment with is to use a Mixer block instead of a Multiplexer and "morph" between Amp blocks with Scene Controllers as modifiers and a small amount of "damping" to smooth the transitions...

I keep planning to play around with it but I don't really have a need do that...

That’s a very good thought. Thanks for that.

 

[juliatk]

If you switch channels on a real amp you will almost certainly also hear an audio gap of about the same amount of time.

I will need to test that. It’s been so long, it’s possible I may have remembered that incorrectly. Most of my amps are single channel only, but three are dual channel full analog (Mesa mini Rectifier, Orange Dual Terror and Ceriatone Dumble clone). Thanks.

 

[GlennO]

I agree with the bulk of your post... But one thing to consider is that switching Amps is different than switching channels on an Amp.

In the Fractal world, switching Amps is like a combo of those 2.

If you switch channels on a real amp you will almost certainly also hear an audio gap of about the same amount of time.

Is there a particular amp you're thinking of? I don't recall encountering that, but I've never played 99% of the amps in the world. I would guess it would be a little challenging to insert a gap like that into analog switching circuitry.

By the way, another option you could experiment with is to use a Mixer block instead of a Multiplexer and "morph" between Amp blocks with Scene Controllers as modifiers and a small amount of "damping" to smooth the transitions...

I keep planning to play around with it but I don't really have a need do that...

I almost always do that. I like the little swell I get when going from clean to dirty. But, that's not really a technique to permit more than two gapless amp channels per preset.