Analog vs. USB recording in Axe fx II!

bkrumme said:
If I do that, then the Analog one is downsampled while the others aren't. To me, that would throw off the test since the conditions for each clip aren't consistent.
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Oh so you recorded Analog at 48 Khz? I thought you recorded Analog at standard CD format. Atleast that's what people would normally do. Either at 44.1 Khz or it's multiple. Oh well...
 
Despite the fact that the USB re-amping feature is probably one of the coolest things in the AxeII, what throws it off for me a bit is the 48 samplerate. I totally understand Cliff's reasoning behind that, but for me as a session player it's just not working. Any studio, any producer I work for are on 44.1, always. To rebounce tracks they send me to 48, record my guitars, bounce back to 44.1 sounds good on paper, but just doesn't work like that in the real world. Not even to mention to ask the producers I regularly work for in their studios to bounce their whole project to 48 to record guitars. Never gonna happen, hahaha ! Anyone who's doing a lot of session work probably knows what I'm talking about. It's about working fast, the re-amping feature helps in that regard tremendously, but not on a 48 samplerate... I don't know how difficult it would be to implement selectable samplerate, but that would make it perfect.
 
I must have shitty ears cause I dont hear much of a difference between the 3. If anything. #1 sounds a tad different than the other two but nothing I would be able to pinpoint without a side by side.

Thanks for the time you put into this bkrumme. Ill play around later because now I am curious if I will get any differences between going thru USB and going digital thru... II ---AES--> Fireface UFX ----USB--> PC. Theoretically, it should be the same signal as it goes thru no A/D or D/A conversions. Ill be curious if the UFX colors the sound any.

Craig
 
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VegaBaby said:
Despite the fact that the USB re-amping feature is probably one of the coolest things in the AxeII, what throws it off for me a bit is the 48 samplerate. I totally understand Cliff's reasoning behind that, but for me as a session player it's just not working. Any studio, any producer I work for are on 44.1, always. To rebounce tracks they send me to 48, record my guitars, bounce back to 44.1 sounds good on paper, but just doesn't work like that in the real world. Not even to mention to ask the producers I regularly work for in their studios to bounce their whole project to 48 to record guitars. Never gonna happen, hahaha ! Anyone who's doing a lot of session work probably knows what I'm talking about. It's about working fast, the re-amping feature helps in that regard tremendously, but not on a 48 samplerate... I don't know how difficult it would be to implement selectable samplerate, but that would make it perfect.
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I agree, that just defeats the purpose of USB. :(
 
Izzyprad said:
I agree, that just defeats the purpose of USB. :(
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If you're using Pro Tools, all you'd have to do is make a new 48K session and import the files you're sent. Record your Axe tracks, and then do a Save Session Copy and tic that you want to make the copy at 44.1. Or, you could select all the regions, and using Export Regions As Files, select 44.1 (or whichever you'd like) there.



o.
 
Francis 7 said:
If you're using Pro Tools, all you'd have to do is make a new 48K session and import the files you're sent. Record your Axe tracks, and then do a Save Session Copy and tic that you want to make the copy at 44.1. Or, you could select all the regions, and using Export Regions As Files, select 44.1 (or whichever you'd like) there.



o.
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Yes, there are plenty of workarounds, but they remain...workarounds.

don't get me wrong. not trying to start a discussion here and I think the USB feature is absolutely fantastic and very slick, but real world scenarios require 44.1.

a lot of the producers I work for would most happily install the USB driver for me to plug my rig straight into their system (afterall, it's them who'd end up with my D.I. files for future tweaking), but not convert their sessions to 48 before the session starts. one scenario are remixes, total recall is everywhere so it's never been easier to chop up an existing track to do a quick radio edit. if you converted your original project back to 44.1 after recording guitars and still have the original 48 USB files....you can imagine the steps involved here.

like I said, not trying to start a discussion or bash the Axe's samplerate, just speaking from experience...
 
Francis 7 said:
If you're using Pro Tools, all you'd have to do is make a new 48K session and import the files you're sent. Record your Axe tracks, and then do a Save Session Copy and tic that you want to make the copy at 44.1. Or, you could select all the regions, and using Export Regions As Files, select 44.1 (or whichever you'd like) there.



o.
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Obviously you can do that. The point is when you downsample 48 Khz to 44.1 Khz, you are "loosing" signal quality. It wont be same as recording at 44.1 Khz. Now, I dont mean to be picky, but just saying. For home recordist like us, it may not matter, but if are working on a professional album, it would probably be a no no.


My question to Cliff would be - Yes, I understand that you can't change the sampling rate of the SPDIF, because that's the standard for that digital Audio interface created by Sony/Philips. But USB is just a data transfer medium, why can't we have the option to change the sample rate for USB? Shouldn't the A/D converter in the Axe fx have that option?
 
Not sure why this is even an issue. Every major DAW can do down/up-sampling pretty much on the fly. If you're recording guitars at 48k while the rest of the project is at 44.1, you don't have to worry about anything. Since you're not re-recording the other parts, their sample rate doesn't change, it only gets upsampled during playback while you record. Then your guitar tracks get downsampled to 44.1 when you bounce the project. Downsampling from 48 to 44.1 is going to have a negligible impact on the sound. It would be no worse than if you recorded at 44.1 in the first place. In fact, it will probably be better.

The only time re-sampling will be an issue is when the project is recorded at a rate *HIGHER* than 48, then you record the guitars at 48. Then the guitar tracks will be technically of a lower quality than the rest of the project. Say you record everything else at 96kHz, but your guitars are at 48kHz. Your guitars would be HALF the bitrate as the rest of the project. That's where you *might* (if you have super-human hearing) be able to tell a difference.

Then we have to consider the majority of your listeners will likely have a shitty/lossy compressed mp3 of the music which makes this entire argument moot in the first place.
 
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That's because when you downsample 48 Khz to 44.1 Khz, you are not replicating the original signal that was recorded at 48Khz. When a signal is recorded at 48 Khz, the signal is sampled 48000 times/sec, now when you are downsampling to 44.1Khz, you are re-arranging the samples so that you only have 44100 samples in 1 sec. If you look closer, the samples will not be spaced same as earlier.

For e.g., you have 10 mm in 1 cm (assume these mm are samples), when you "downsample" 10mm/cm to 9mm/cm you will have to re-arrange the mm spacing to that they all fit within 1 cm. So your downsampled signal is not going to be the actual representation of the original analog signal, because now you are doing some interpolation to guess those signal values for a different sample rate.

Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement, so I will stop here. Like I said before the difference is negligible.
 
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VegaBaby said:
Despite the fact that the USB re-amping feature is probably one of the coolest things in the AxeII, what throws it off for me a bit is the 48 samplerate. I totally understand Cliff's reasoning behind that, but for me as a session player it's just not working. Any studio, any producer I work for are on 44.1, always. To rebounce tracks they send me to 48, record my guitars, bounce back to 44.1 sounds good on paper, but just doesn't work like that in the real world. Not even to mention to ask the producers I regularly work for in their studios to bounce their whole project to 48 to record guitars. Never gonna happen, hahaha ! Anyone who's doing a lot of session work probably knows what I'm talking about. It's about working fast, the re-amping feature helps in that regard tremendously, but not on a 48 samplerate... I don't know how difficult it would be to implement selectable samplerate, but that would make it perfect.
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I understand what you are saying, but I would think that anyone doing regular session work would have at least a decent, little recording set up at home with a decent pre and converters to record at whatever rate is needed for that session.

Being locked in at 48k isn't ideal, but knowing Cliff's track record, I'm sure it's for a very good reason and with decent converters, using the analog outs is a non issue. The usb thing is a great feature for some guys who may not have a home studio set up, but for anyone with some nice outboard gear, it's almost a shame NOT to use it when tracking guitars. My signal chain is Axefx-Chandler Tg2-Distressor(sometimes)-Anamod ATS-1-Avid 8x8-Pro Tools. I have no desire for the usb i/o other than just to put down an idea quickly if I'm in a hurry.

The way the Axefx is designed, there's a workaround for about any conceiveable situation.
cheers,
Steve
 
guittarzzan said:
I understand what you are saying, but I would think that anyone doing regular session work would have at least a decent, little recording set up at home with a decent pre and converters to record at whatever rate is needed for that session.

Being locked in at 48k isn't ideal, but knowing Cliff's track record, I'm sure it's for a very good reason and with decent converters, using the analog outs is a non issue. The usb thing is a great feature for some guys who may not have a home studio set up, but for anyone with some nice outboard gear, it's almost a shame NOT to use it when tracking guitars. My signal chain is Axefx-Chandler Tg2-Distressor(sometimes)-Anamod ATS-1-Avid 8x8-Pro Tools. I have no desire for the usb i/o other than just to put down an idea quickly if I'm in a hurry.

The way the Axefx is designed, there's a workaround for about any conceiveable situation.
cheers,
Steve
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I agree, but using analog outs (as I exclusively do without any desire for USB) wasn't the point here. it was about using the USB out for the handy re-amping feature. sure there are workarounds, inside the Axe and the DAW, but they are just that, workarounds ;) .

I'm not even trying to complain here, since like you, I have my own studio and don't need the USB functionality as a "soundcard" option, however, using it for re-amping the way it is designed for is great, but...it comes with the drawback of a set samplerate which requires more steps within the workflow.
 
VegaBaby said:
I agree, but using analog outs (as I exclusively do without any desire for USB) wasn't the point here. it was about using the USB out for the handy re-amping feature. sure there are workarounds, inside the Axe and the DAW, but they are just that, workarounds ;) .

I'm not even trying to complain here, since like you, I have my own studio and don't need the USB functionality as a "soundcard" option, however, using it for re-amping the way it is designed for is great, but...it comes with the drawback of a set samplerate which requires more steps within the workflow.
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Who says you can't use USB to re-amp while still using the Analog outs to record? It would add some complexity to the configuration, but should be possible as long as you can route out through the USB and in from another interface. (Logic 9 can do this)
 
bkrumme said:
Who says you can't use USB to re-amp while still using the Analog outs to record? It would add some complexity to the configuration, but should be possible as long as you can route out through the USB and in from another interface. (Logic 9 can do this)
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I'm sure that would work, but USB sends the dry outs as well which is cool to have straight away while tracking. again, not the point, since that still requires 48 samplerate.

seems like this derailed a bit, hahaha. all I'm trying to say is...selectable samplerate = win :) . yes, it's working like it is, yes, there are workarounds etc... no big deal but not ideal ;)
 
VegaBaby said:
I'm sure that would work, but USB sends the dry outs as well which is cool to have straight away while tracking. again, not the point, since that still requires 48 samplerate.

seems like this derailed a bit, hahaha. all I'm trying to say is...selectable samplerate = win :) . yes, it's working like it is, yes, there are workarounds etc... no big deal but not ideal ;)
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I agree and very well said. At this point with the II if you really want to be able to do it ALL "within the box" then selectable sample rate would have been ideal, no denying that! It's selectable on the 11R.
 
A possible problem with selectable sample rate is the load it would put on processing. You would dial up some heavy CPU presets in 44k and then change the sample rate to 48k or 96k and not be able to load them. The Axe is optimized for 48k. Cliff chose to leave the resampling up to the user and take a probable headache out of the equation.
Not ideal for everyone as stated but still doable for everyone.
 
There was an article by some recording genius that decided that 66khz was the most you'd ever need for human hearing for music -- even including pyshcoacoustic effects. I can't remember the guys name, but he made some really nice converters that you could step from 44-192, though he warned that anything beyond 88.2 was silly.
 
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