Analog Re-amping with the Axe-fx II

mortega76

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
Having a heck of a time with AISO4ALL and AISO in general so gonna start using analog for re-amping. I tried to do a search and found a couple of posts... it mentioned having two rows or one row with the fx block right at the beginning for the dry signal but nothing with regards to how the signal paths would go for re-amping. Could someone point me in the right direction to accomplish this? Thanks.
 
Place a fx return right after the send. The send goes to the recorder input and recorder output goes to fx return. Configure the fx block send so the dry signal goes to both the fx output and whatever is normally downstream. Reamp playback becomes automatic.

Edit note: see clarification in a later post.
 
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Thanks for the reply widrace... I must be losing my mind because I actually don't know what you're talking about. So you are saying to place an fx return block right after the send, so I need both a send and return on top of using the fx loop block?
 
by 'analogue', do you mean re-amping via the Axe's 1/4" jack in/out connections instead of re-amping via the USB?
 
mortega76 said:
Thanks for the reply widrace... I must be losing my mind because I actually don't know what you're talking about. So you are saying to place an fx return block right after the send, so I need both a send and return on top of using the fx loop block?
Click to expand...

If you just want to record a completely dry signal you only need the FX send, no return necessary.

When actually re-amping just route the dry signal back into the Axe, I think it's advisable to use the rear inputs for this. Works fine for me anyway.

I guess you could route back to an FX return if you'd recorded with some FX and wanted to send the 're-amp' signal back to the same place in the chain. I don't know if there's any quality benefit from routing back to the FX returns rather than the standard audio inputs due to impedance levels etc. Someone with more technical knowledge could weigh in here...
 
mortega76 said:
Thanks for the reply widrace... I must be losing my mind because I actually don't know what you're talking about. So you are saying to place an fx return block right after the send, so I need both a send and return on top of using the fx loop block?
Click to expand...

Don't feel bad. I read it 3 times and couldn't decipher it either.
 
just a little thought.......
if you are wanting to re-amp without the USB and without using the Axe as an AI you don't need to do anything in the Axe

you just need to set up your AI correctly and the AI needs to have the ability to route [or 'send'] various physical ins and outs to various firewire ins and outs
this method requires you to jack your guitar directly into the AI...

this is exactly how I go about reamping because:
USB AI is crap [even the good ones seem to introduce lil' clicks and things, and the bad ones are really bad]
there is no perceivable latency in the dry recording and re-amping processes
and contrary to popular belief, there is no preceivable loss in audio quality due to AD/ DA conversion..

in fact, even if there were are slight loss of quality I'd rather that than clicks and pops..

anyways... if this is what you're after knowing shout and I'll walk you through the 'how to' steps and what capabilities your AI must have
 
widrace said:
Place a fx return right after the send. The send goes to the recorder input and recorder output goes to fx return. Configure the fx block send so the dry signal goes to both the fx output and whatever is normally downstream. Reamp playback becomes automatic.
Click to expand...

haaa.... cool.... this would overcome limitations in a 'lower model' AI... very simple and very clever... I like this a lot...
so are these send & retrun blocks placed right after the input [before the Axe gets a chance to process anything]?

when I get my Axe I'll mess with this idea of yours...
if it does what I hope, I may end up placing a defacto send & return into all my presets for re-amping purposes....
a sort of "recording readiness" pair of blocks
 
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heres the preset im using to do this:

View attachment test.syx

to record, i mute the return and i have both the wet and dry signals running into the DAW (main outs and fx send). to reamp, enable the return (DAW to fx return). problem is, every time i double-click the return in axe-edit, it crashes requiring a reboot of the axe-fx itself. even rebooting the computer doesnt work, the afx has to be restarted. thoughts?
 
clarky said:
haaa.... cool.... this would overcome limitations in a 'lower model' AI... very simple and very clever... I like this a lot...
so are these send & retrun blocks placed right after the input [before the Axe gets a chance to process anything]?

when I get my Axe I'll mess with this idea of yours...
if it does what I hope, I may end up placing a defacto send & return into all my presets for re-amping purposes....
a sort of "recording readiness" pair of blocks
Click to expand...
Thanks for chiming in fellas... hey there clarky... looks like you understand "both" methods for analog reamping... If you would be so kind as to explain both, it would be greatly appreciated! (yes, the USB clicks and AISO drivers are why I'm hoping to use analog... WDM would be better for use with my MOTU 24i)
 
Oop's - not so fast. I was speaking too generally and in a hurry, sorry.

Being more specific:

The first block is empty, second is the FX block, and third is a Mixer block. Create an additional path from the first empty block (going around the FX block) to the mixer block. The amp (or whatever) is all downstream of these three blocks.

Now patch a cable from FX out (I use the left side) to your recorder, then patch a cable from the recorder back to the FX return (left side). The only other cables are those that feed the recorder from the main outputs.

In operation, the FX send feeds the dry signal to the recorder no matter what. The mixer selects what the axe will see downstream - either the signal from the recorder to be reamped, the front input while recording/jamming, or both.

Leave the front input on all the time - no need to switch over to the rear input or pull plugs. Note that you can monitor the entire path (including to the recorder and back) or just the normal path thru the axe, all via the mixer input selected. If your recorder has latency issues you may notice it when monitoring the entire path. If so, stick to the normal path when recording/jamming.

There are several other ways to do this, but I like this one best and nothing else is needed. All your patches can have the front-end blocks set up like this, allowing reamping later on - just by hitting the record button.

If you want to get fancy during a mix, mult the dry track (in one of many ways possible) and stuff some of it in as well if you like.

For those that fret over the DA/AD conversion issues - this is not 1985.
 
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Any chance of a patch to see what you're talking about? Thanks a bunch widrace (and everyone esle too)!

widrace... so connection wise... If I'm going mono, I would of course 1. plug in the guitar in the front input 2. plug the output (left) to my AI input then you are saying 3. output from the DAW to the fx out (?) for the dry signal? (pictures would definitely help a brotha out!)
 
All good except for "output from the DAW to the fx out". The DAW output (the recorder) goes back to the fx input on the axe. Your AI/DAW input is fed the signal for reamping from the fx output on the Axe.
 
before I start....
Mortega - what AI and DAW are you using?

the ASIO stuff I can't help with... I use a Mac with Logic....

in Logic I create a channel strip to record audio - let's call it DryGtr

let's say that the AI is a basic 4 in / 4 out firewire unit

jack in's
1 - electric guitar [turn on the 'Hi-Z' or equivalent if you have this feature to match the impedance of the guitar]
2 -
3 - Axe jack output Left
4 - Axe jack output Right

jack out's
1 - left monitor
2 - right monitor
3 - Axe jack input [where you'd jack in the guitar]
4 -

firewire channels
AI out / DAW in
1 - records the dry guitar
2 -
3 - records the Axe left channel
4 - records the Axe right channel

AI in / DAW out
1 - DAW master out left [ultimately to left monitor]
2 - DAW master out right [ultimately to right monitor]
3 - dry guitar from DAW to AI [ultimately to Axe guitar input] for re-amping
4 -

AI routing:
channel 1 jack input
- this will route to the AI firewire out 1 by default. set the DryGtr channel strip input to record from this firewire channel. in Logic it will be 'input 1'.
this will then record the dry guitar. you're AI will have a mixer that you can see in the computer, using this:
-- set the fader to zero so you don't hear the dry guitar
-- assign the 'send' to jack [line] out 3 so what you are playing also gets sent to the Axe

channel 3 firewire input
- route this to jack out 3 [which it should already do by default]
- in the DAW set the DryGtr output to firewire out 3 [in Logic this will be output 3-4]
-- when you 'playback' your dry guitar is sent out over DAW output 3-4 to AI input 3-4 [and ultimately to AI out 3 and into the Axe where the guitar jacks in]

in the DAW create another channel strip to record the Axe called RiffGtr
input will be firewire input 3-4 [via the AI firewire output 3-4]
at this stage leave the output to 'none' / no output because you are monitoring the Axe directly through the AI

once you have recorded the Axe and you're happy
mute the DryGtr channel strip to prevent it from playing the Axe
set the RiffGtr channel strip output to output 1-2 so that is now plays within the mix to the master out of the DAW

Notes:
- if you have an AI that can sate user preset configs you'll may find that you'll need one cofig to record the DryGtr and another config to listen to playback and / or re-amp from the DryGtr via the Axe to record the RiffGtr. on the other hand you may be able to do all this via a single config. it all depends upon the capabilities of your AI.
- make a note of what the Axe's input levels look like when you jack in the guitar directly because you will need to replicate this with both the AI jack input 1 'send' control and the output level of the DAW DryGtr channel as these will be sending your dry guitar signal to the Axe [and you want the Axe to behave exactly the same as if your guitar were jacked directly in. So you're replicating your 'tickling of the reds' in the AI and DAW.
- what I've written above is a very general principle. you'll have to work out the details for yourself given the capabilities of both your DAW and your AI.

my set up is based upon this but with a major difference. I have a hardware [analogue] mixing desk with everything [fx and keys] connected to it and the AI is simply a means to get in and out of the DAW. I do this because I have several guitar FX units and can re-amp up to three of them in stereo simultaneously. I particularly like this because the whole point of re-amping is about selecting the guitar tones that not only work best in the mix, but also that work best with each other. When re-amping one guitar at a time you'll often find that you'll encounter phasing in the higher frequencies because you have too much gain or the tones are too similar.
EDIT: or you may find that the tones don't blend well or upset the stereo balance of the mix; typically one tone being more bass heavy than another which has the effect of making the mix 'lean' to one side. [Note: I can generally fix this by sending all guitars to an aux channel in the DAW and using tools like Ozone make the bass more central / mono and allow the higher freqs to 'spread'. without such tools you'll need to be more careful with eq either in the DAW or the Axe to get this erroneous effect under control]. END OF EDIT.
Being able to re-amp many parts simultaneously allows me to address these problems before I have to commit the wet guitar parts to 'tape'.
 
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I've been messing with this a bit since last night and I just got home. I was able to record wet and dry and even reamp using the SPDIF output as the dry signal and then created a submix from that track ot the SPDIF input of the AxeFXII during reamp. I'm still working out a good working monitoring situation because if I monitor the AxeFXII's wet feed (with no latency) then it's a few extra steps to disable the monitoring in the DAW and I can't hear the other tracks which is kind of important. If I use the DAW's monitoring (which is easiest) I'm dealing with some latency. And last but not least I am still tied to 48kHz and I'm still getting the occasional pop and click on the dry SPDIF signal.

I'd rather go analog for a host of reasons to be honest. But I did try feeding the guitar straight into the interface and then route stuff around to the AxeFXII and then back into the interface. It felt like absolute crap; there is something about the front input that is much better IMHO.

I remember one of the admins coming up with a suggestion that is basically a firmware feature request. If we could take the OUTPUT 2 and rather than have to choose between just copy 1 to 2 or off, how about make it an OUTPUT 2 SOURCE that you can choose between INPUT or OUTPUT 1? Then we could get a dry signal without having to use any digital outputs or mess with the frickin' idea of adding an FX send and return in every patch. Just choose the rear input when you reamp.
 
shasha said:
I remember one of the admins coming up with a suggestion that is basically a firmware feature request. If we could take the OUTPUT 2 and rather than have to choose between just copy 1 to 2 or off, how about make it an OUTPUT 2 SOURCE that you can choose between INPUT or OUTPUT 1? Then we could get a dry signal without having to use any digital outputs or mess with the frickin' idea of adding an FX send and return in every patch. Just choose the rear input when you reamp.
Click to expand...

now you got me thinking.....
could you [in the Axe] make the following connections in the 'grid':

input through your amp / cab FX blocks to output 1 <-- business as usual
input straight across the grid via shunt blocks to output 2 <-- gets the dry guitar out of the Axe via a jack

EDIT: answer to my own question [having done a little RTFM]

yes you can do this... it's exactly what WIDRACE was describing at the start of this thread...
you route the dry signal out of output 2 via the 'send block' and get the dry into the Axe input 2 via the 'return block'

this though will require your DAW and AI to be set up a little differently to what I described earlier.. not greatly so though...
and I'd imagine this to be a much better / easier way of doing things
I like this a lot... none of my current FX units have this ability..
when my Axe finally shows up, this is most likely how I'll config it..

Axe out 1 for playback monitoring and recording wet
Axe out 2 for recording the dry guitar
Axe instrument in will have a very sexy Morgan Guitar Works V6 stuffed into it
Axe rear in 2 will take in the dry guitar from the AI for re-amping
 
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A lot of great info... Gonna read and check back... I'm currently using a MOTU 24i into Sonar 8.5... Problem with the MOTU is that it had a bunch of ins but only one set of outs... I also have an older Creative Labs USB 0404 that was giving me some issues when I was testing it through PreSonus Studio One (outputs where digitally fizzing out then dying, would have to restart the audio device and it would kick back up... Research shows it to be a driver issue)... Haven't used it on Sonar at all yet.
 
You should be able to use the analog outs and the SPDIF outs of the 24i at the same time. That would give you 4 mono outputs.

Richard
 
I was the one who posted my analog stuff elsewhere, but the effect return before the signal chain is a great idea!

How's about run the effect loop in parallel with the input before the signal chain. Then you need not change any inputs, but mute/unmute the dry track in the DAW or plug into the front to either jam or do reamp. No latency when you jam and no changing inputs to reamp. SWEET!!!:lol


So you have separate tracks for the final signal and monitor it pre DAW through your AI like I do with my FF800 for no latency.


How's about that........

Actually I need to amend that. You need to toggle the output on the dry track (In my case dryout/no out) to take care of muting the signal when trying to record the dry input. Otherwise, you mute the whole track derrrr.....but when not recording the dry signal you can just mute the whole thing...


Even further update. getting lots of signal noise through the fx loop so testing is needed, sorry for the premature excitement:roll
 
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