Acoustic preamp question

BBN said:
So I'm going to throw out my recent experience.....

Start out with - I'm a fractal lover and gig with my FM3 every weekend (and have been gigging with Fractal since my first Axe Ultra purchase). That is for band gigs (electric).

For acoustic gigs, I have a small pedal board -> Keely Comp - Boss Eq - Wampler Tunmus - HX Stomp (for tuner and volume boost).
I set up an A/B box and tried to match this set up in my FM3. I tried like hell, and I cannot get as warm of a sound using the FM3 alone.
It left me a little frustrated to be honest. It logically does not make sense....but my ears are hearing what they hear.

I used a Comp - Tube Pre - EQ in the FM3. It just sounds thinner (no matter how much I EQ). I love to find out that there is something I'm not doing right...but for the time being, I've stuck with my 'analog' pedal board.
Click to expand...
Maybe run a Tone Match to get it closer?
 
BBN said:
So I'm going to throw out my recent experience.....

Start out with - I'm a fractal lover and gig with my FM3 every weekend (and have been gigging with Fractal since my first Axe Ultra purchase). That is for band gigs (electric).

For acoustic gigs, I have a small pedal board -> Keely Comp - Boss Eq - Wampler Tunmus - HX Stomp (for tuner and volume boost).
I set up an A/B box and tried to match this set up in my FM3. I tried like hell, and I cannot get as warm of a sound using the FM3 alone.
It left me a little frustrated to be honest. It logically does not make sense....but my ears are hearing what they hear.

I used a Comp - Tube Pre - EQ in the FM3. It just sounds thinner (no matter how much I EQ). I love to find out that there is something I'm not doing right...but for the time being, I've stuck with my 'analog' pedal board.
Click to expand...
I use an approach I have seen here a few times that works really well.

Put a nice acoustic IR (the 3sigma J45 is amazing) first in a cab block. Then a studio FF comp after. A nice reverb block at the end. Maybe a PEQ in the middle if you really need deep shaping beyond the cab block.

It sounds a lot better than other methods I have tried ..like comp out front or a tube pre block. I have used this for acoustics and electrics with piezos and it really sounds nice.
 
jzguitar said:
Maybe run a Tone Match to get it closer?
Click to expand...
Sure, but should you need to? For the life of me I can't figure out why a basic preset with just EQ even sounds warmer with just a Boss EQ. Trust me when I say - it bothers me that I can't figure it out because I love my Axe III and FM3.

I don't love using IRs either, I bought a bunch from 3Sigma and none of them sound better than tweaks with EQ/Preamp from an analog set up.

I go down rabbit holes all the time...and I went down the acoustic rabbit hole with my FM3. I never found anything that sounded excellent.
 
BBN said:
Sure, but should you need to? For the life of me I can't figure out why a basic preset with just EQ even sounds warmer with just a Boss EQ. Trust me when I say - it bothers me that I can't figure it out because I love my Axe III and FM3.

I don't love using IRs either, I bought a bunch from 3Sigma and none of them sound better than tweaks with EQ/Preamp from an analog set up.

I go down rabbit holes all the time...and I went down the acoustic rabbit hole with my FM3. I never found anything that sounded excellent.
Click to expand...
What guitar?
 
BBN said:
Tell me more about what you mean? You believe the Boss pedal is doing something other than Eq (in my analog signal chain)?
Click to expand...
Im not sure if the other pedals listed have buffers, but buffer/true bypass/etc is an option on a few digital pedals these days.

Try your board with 0 buffered pedals in comparison and see if things change?
 
Budda said:
Im not sure if the other pedals listed have buffers, but buffer/true bypass/etc is an option on a few digital pedals these days.

Try your board with 0 buffered pedals in comparison and see if things change?
Click to expand...
If I just use Boss Eq, it is wider and rounder than if I just use an Eq block in the Axe/FM3.
(sorry, that's my best description)
 
Budda said:
Thats with the pedal in chain but not engaged?
Click to expand...
Yes and some if not all Boss pedals have the option to be buffered and or true bypass I think. I know mine does and I leave it on buffered. If it’s the only pedal in the chain you need to know if it is buffered or true bypass. I believe the axe takes care of that buffering function on the input. I could be mistaken. But I would have the Boss EQ in true bypass if it’s the only pedal in the chain. Cable length can have an effect on it as well. As I understand it the longer the cables length the more highs you can lose so a buffer comes in handy.
 
If its a ge7 i think its buffered all the time. Outside of newer multi-button units i dont know offhand of boss pedals that can switch between buffered and true bypass (maybe the old dual pad models like the dd20 but no idea).
 
Budda said:
If its a ge7 i think its buffered all the time. Outside of newer multi-button units i dont know offhand of boss pedals that can switch between buffered and true bypass (maybe the old dual pad models like the dd20 but no idea).
Click to expand...
Yea I could be wrong mine is an old rc2.
 
Budda said:
If its a ge7 i think its buffered all the time. Outside of newer multi-button units i dont know offhand of boss pedals that can switch between buffered and true bypass (maybe the old dual pad models like the dd20 but no idea).
Click to expand...
Yes, and it's an old GE7 (runs from a 12v power supply). If it truly is the buffering that helps, wondering how I compensate for that in the Axe?
 
JOHNNYROCKIT said:
K&K Pure Mini Acoustic Guitar Pickup
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P5OULA/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Click to expand...
Yes, these are okay. I wound up with the James May Ultra-Tonic K&K upgrade pickup system to replace this in a nylon string crossover. It's helped with some of the important things. Note, the output is not that strong (* from the Ultra-Tonic), but it's response is much more balanced. Previously, the pickup system was the K&K plus Graphtech Ghost, which had more than sufficient volume, but was very unbalanced, boomy in the basses and weak high E. It is now completely passive. The Fishman Aura struggles to amplify it, but it's no problem with the Zoom AC-3 Acoustic Creator.
 
How long are your cables? Try without the Boss and use a short short cable. Just for grins. If the cable length is providing a high capacitance a buffered pedal would help correct the losses involved. So try one short cable and no pedal and see what happens.
 
BBN said:
Yes, and it's an old GE7 (runs from a 12v power supply). If it truly is the buffering that helps, wondering how I compensate for that in the Axe?
Click to expand...
Try the different input impedance settings in the Axe. You might like less loading (highest impedance) or more if that's what the Boss does that you like.

You're referring to it as "buffering" though, which usually means presenting LESS load to to source, which would be best matched the the highest input impedance available. That's the default i believe, unless you have certain fuzzes first in the chain, part of whose characteristic sound it the way they load the guitar. That seems unlikely here though.

So logic aside, just try the available settings and see what sounds best to you.
 
Nominal input impedance of a GE-7 appears to be 1Mohm, same as the Axe FX III, so there's something else going on beside buffering if the sound changes with the GE-7 in circuit.

Being a bit more logical, but maybe more complex, I notice the buffer circuit on the GE-7 seems to do a bit of RC filtering. Looks to me like a low pass somewhere a little north of 7 kHz, but my analogue electronics knowledge is a bit rusty. I guess one could always tone match a bypassed GE-7, and run that tone match as a block straight after the input. That really ought to sound the same.

Liam
 
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