About playing sensations

Clive

Clive

Experienced
After talking a lot on other forums with Axe users, some of them say they have the same sensation when playing, whatever the amp block they choose. They don't say there's a problem of sound or dynamics with the Axe, they just say when they go back and play their real amp and switch to another real one, the feeling is different from one amp to another, they have to battle, to learn again how to play it. These people find this disappointing because they absolutely want the Axe to be exactly like the original.
I don't expect the Axe to be like the original, if I want the original, I can buy it, that's what I explain to them. There's no problem for me in fact, on the contrary, I don't want to battle when I play with the Axe.
However, I'd like to go deep in the Axe and I'd like to learn tips to tweak (which parameters to tweak in the amp block) in order to find how to make the playing sensation with Axe close to the Original. Thus I'll have good advice to give.
 
I marvel at what Cliff has acomplished with the AxeFx.I started playing guitar in the 1970's. My first real amp was a 2x12 Peavy Classic 50,which had a tube power amp and solid state preamp. Even to my unschooled ears it sounded like shite. From that point on I battled to find great tone that was versatile and didn't have to blow out my ears to sound good. I've owned a 1970's era 1x12 Mesa Boogie with multi gain stages on a single channel and 60/100 watt power switch. It was too loud. I owned a Cannon Amp, built by a local guy here in Seattle that had 3 channels, was unreliable and never sounded so hot. Later I pre-ordered a Line 6 Axsys 212 before it had even been released. I actually got some great sounds out of that amp, but it wasn't authentic. The point is every amp I've ever owned has had some type of limitation. What I find so miraculous about the AxeFX2 is how much it gives at such a low price point. Based upon my 3-4 years of experience with Fractal Audio I have no doubt that Cliff will continue to push the envelope to wring that last bit of authenticity out of the hardware and software.

That being said there are constraints imposed by the hardware that limit what Cliff can do. One example Cliff has mentioned is the processors he uses aren't powerful enough so he has to use two. Cliff has stated that using two processors introduces a small amount of latency (1-2ms if I remember correctly). I wonder if this has anything to do with your friend's experience. Though miniscule 1-2ms might bother some people. Common sense suggests that some small amount of latency might cause some to experience a lack of immediacy or connection to a modeled amp.

I'm sure as technology advances and quantum processors become available and affordable then the AxeFX2 or AxeFX6 or whatever will get even closer to the real thing. But until then I marvel at what Cliff has achieved with what we have now. I think that his passion, dedication, genius and incredible customer service are a package that boggles the mind. Lest I sound like too big a fanboi I don't think the AxeFX2 is perfect. Clearly Cliff doesn't either or he wouldn't keep releasing firmware updates.

My thought about your friends is that they may have sensitive ears and can therefore pickup on technological limitations like 1-2ms I mentioned above. Unfortunately there is no way to tweak out latency. If that limitation is a deal breaker for them then this probably isn't the product for them. Me, I'm going to enjoy my embarrassment riches and wait to see what new rabbits Cliff pulls out of his hat.
 
Thank you very much for taking time to answer Iscottk. I totally agree with you. I also thought about this problem of latency (if it's a problem for certain people) but I didn't want to talk about it because I am not 100 % sure. Since you're talking about it, I wonder if the problem doesn't come from the fact that this latency is different from one (real) amp to another (real) one whereas with the Axe, the latency is always the same that's why some people say the feeling is often the same with the Axe and they have to battle, to relearn playing with real amp. Just thinking...


Another thing : what creates mainly this latency in the Axe : A/D D/A converters ?
 
Real analog amps have zero latency. Electrons hop at speed of light. Listening distance from the speaker is where you experience delay. About 1ms per foot.

If you listen through a digital interface with direct low-latency monitoring that device will have latency. A/D to D/A is usually less than 1.5ms.
Axe II has about 2ms analog in to analog out.
Listening through the computer CPU adds quite a bit more depending on the buffer setting and possibly processing time for plug-ins,etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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I think it helps a lot to visualize that the AFx2 is like having an amp in the room next door, miked up like in a recording studio, and what your listening to is the miked up amp and cab. Not the amp and cab directly. So like with any system where a computer is in the signal chain (including any for of recording) there's going to be a small amount of latency introduced. That's just the nature of it.
 
Is this problem ocurring at low, or high volumes?

At low volumes anything would basically feel the same, your available dynamic range will be drastyically reduced, let alone adding distortion. Just try playing thru 3 different mic'd up amps from a studio control room.
Same feeling I get when I swap thru different amp sims at low volumes, though even at higher low volumes (high headphone levels right before ears start to hurt), I do sense that some amps sound and feel way too different from others sometimes and I avoid them, despite knowing about their true potential. Like if the way I have to do legatos and bends thru one amp sounds gorgeous, but on the next one, sounds gritty, shrilly and yucky... so I have to kinda "get used to how it works", and adapt my technique. All this using headphones.


And regarding high volumes:
So my band uses this recording studio where we have a couple of all tube Laneys for practicing.
They took me an 1/2 - 1 hour so to learn how to play on them, but they still felt alien to me. So I just took my AXE into the room.
I use my all familiar Plexi patches, for almost everything. Finally my comfort zone again. Don't ge me wrong the Laneys sound great but they I'm just not used to them.
When my band mates ask me why do I have to carry all that luggage into the recording room instead of just using the practice Lanyes, I tell them that I'm used to "my plexis", and honestly switching back and forth between the AXE's plexi and the studio's Laneys is a real pain in the ass cos they are too different!. I feel my technique in one of them is useless if applied to the other one. And I don't waste fun and productive time getting to know the Laney.
This very same thing happens whenever I try different, heavier amp sims. I just have to go back to my land. It's like I need to take my time with other amp sims just like I had to do with any other amp I've played. I still need some "adjusting time" when switching from a Plexi sim to a JCM800 sim. It's a matter of minutes, but still happens.

This is the reason I only use like 2-3 amps from all the collection in the AXE, and I stick to them. It takes time to get used to each one of them. And frankly in my experience, when I tried to move to the Mark IIc, it was a huge leap from where I was. Then moving back to the plexis and JCM was brutal. Like if I had to relearn everything all over again. I need some time with the boogie while not leaving the plexis and the JCM800 behind so this leap becomes easier to take, and thus having the boogie and marshalls in the comfort zone. Not like I can't play throught another amp sim, It's just that I can't "be me" and play freely on something else. And I'm talking about amp sims here lol.
 
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