A better Solution Than Floor Wedges or IEM

lwknives

lwknives

Power User
The band I play (PW church band) in has a wireless IEM system that is very nice, I get a clear sound, I can hear all the band members, I can get my guitar to sound pretty dang good! BUT... it just doesn't sound near as good as listening to the FOH!!! There is something about listening to speakers in a room that is powerful and huge that you just don't get with IEM.
If I ever get to the point where I am ready to join a giging band again I will be building a PA and want to try and get the best stage sound I can. So I was thinking what if the band had its own PA behind them lifted up on stands just like the main PA?
There are some obvious problems with this...
1. You would get a ton of feedback from the vocal mics. You could solve this by running all the vocals through a normal wedge in the traditional format and running the instruments through the back line PA.
2. You would get phase issues with the FOH PA and the back line PA. I think you could fix most of this by delaying the FOH PA by the correct amount.
I've attached a picture showing what I'm thinking.
Anybody have any thoughts on this? Would it sound good at all. Anybody try anything that gives that big PA sound to the band?

IMG_0916.JPG
 
hmm. I think you will still get feedback with the vocal mics even not having vox going through the back speakers. You would have to spend a lot of time at gigs ringing out the whole thing for feedback. I've never tried the above so I could be completely wrong.
 
dpeterson said:
hmm. I think you will still get feedback with the vocal mics even not having vox going through the back speakers. You would have to spend a lot of time at gigs ringing out the whole thing for feedback. I've never tried the above so I could be completely wrong.
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Where would the feedback come from?
 
good question, instruments would bleed into the vocal mics, then pumped out the front, so not there. Unless you had instrument mic's feeding on themselves, possibly drums, overheads etc. Depends on if you use that stuff.
 
I would hope to not have any instruments miced. I would love to get this setup with e drums and all instruments direct! I'm thinking you could get a good enough mix with this setup that you wouldn't need much volume. I'd like to keep stage volume below 95db.
 
I see a few issues with this concept. The vocal mics will pick up a lot of instruments from the back pole speakers. It will not address the "more of me" in the monitor mix. People standing close to the stage will get a terrible mix as the instruments will be behind the band and the vocals will be out front. There will likely be a sweet spot, but it will be back quite a distance from the stage.

There are some compelling reasons that touring bands use IEMs. Our worship team at church (large auditorium) use an Aviom system. Certainly not the same as the huge backline I used to play through while touring, but I can dial in a very good mix and hear all of the players and singers. I run my Fractal directly into FOH and the monitor mix is in the IEMs by means of the Aviom. IEMs do NOT sound the same as FOH speakers, but a monitor mix never does. I just need to hear what I and all of the other musicians and singers are doing. I never look for FOH quality sound from IEMs.

When I was touring, we put everything in FOH and used 2 monitor systems (floor wedges), one for the instruments and one for the vocals. The real power was in the FOH.
 
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fractalz said:
Side fill? Maybe just some low freq so you feel it and the rest IEM.

Powerful huge speakers = hearing loss.
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The advantage of this system over side fills is that it equalizes the distance between the two speakers giving you a better stereo image. On a small stage with side fills the folks playing on the side of the stage would be like 3 ft from one speaker and 15 ft from the other.
 
lwknives said:
The advantage of this system over side fills is that it equalizes the distance between the two speakers giving you a better stereo image. On a small stage with side fills the folks playing on the side of the stage would be like 3 ft from one speaker and 15 ft from the other.
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That's why I said to keep your in-ears. Put some bottom end in the side fills to give you some feel and connection to your guitars.
 
I would say much like a kicker is used to give drummers the low end thump kicking them in their seat while using IEM, adding just subs as side fill with IEM would do the same for the front line. Get all of your highs and mids from the IEM, and the low end thump hitting you from the subs in the side fills.
 
I don't thinks IEM are going to give me the sound I am after. It's not just low end thump (I don't think) it's the spaciousness! Kind of like making Axe FX tones using speakers vs headphones. Or even just like listening to music on nice speakers vs nice headphones. It always sounds better on real speakers.
 
So what it really sounds like you are wanting is to incorporate more of the room acoustics into your tone. Because that really is the biggest change you would notice with your recommended setup. That is much like your analogy of using speakers in the room VS headphones. Rather than hearing the sound direct on your ears, you would hear more of the affects the room itself has on the tone. Down side is, that would change from room to room, and need to be EQed to suite.
 
fractalz said:
View attachment 35972

Looking at this picture, I'm not sure how you'd compute the proper delay since the speakers are not all on the same axis. I think you'd have phase issues.
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I agree...I think you'll be looking at a phase nightmare with the "PA behind the PA" approach, regardless of the delay.

I gather from your comments that you're wanting to hear a stereo mix onstage. While your listening experience might be enhanced (assuming you're standing in just the right spot), I think your audience's experience will suffer.
 
I've been on both sides of the equation, I'm a musician, I have been a monitor tech. The sole point of a monitor system is to make it so that musicians can hear themselves and the other band members so they can all feel comfortable to play the kind of show that they want to play. Bands who can't hear themselves tend to play worse and more timid. The biggest hurdle to overcome is feedback from mics picking up monitor signals coming from the wedges and fills. That's why monitor techs EQ their systems to eliminate those frequencies most likely to cause feedback. This is not very conducive however to getting an actual nice sound. So unless you have really good high end systems chances are as a musician you should count yourself lucky to be just able to hear what you want. You want it to sound good too? That's probably asking too much of 99% of all monitor systems in the places you're likely to play in. My advice to musicians who really would like to experience the feel of a good sound too, become really, really famous, so you can afford those kind of systems and the techs who can operate it, otherwise, learn to live without and count yourself lucky if you can just hear what you want to hear.

In theory your best bet would be in-ears, as they don't cause feedback problems on stage. Thing is though, if you hand over your in-ear system to a monitor tech, most are amateurs who have no clue how to use one (doing monitors is not a coveted position, it's often handed down to the new guy as everybody prefers doing FOH), and chances are you're still getting that all offending frequencies eliminated EQ that's going to the wedges and fills.

Personally I prefer in-ear, if only because it frees me up to move around the stage and even go into the audience. My preferred mix is not the same as my fellow band members, and even if I have perfect sound coming from the wedge next to my pedal board, the same might not be the case when I move over to stand next to the bass player's wedge.
 
TG3K said:
I agree...I think you'll be looking at a phase nightmare with the "PA behind the PA" approach, regardless of the delay.

I gather from your comments that you're wanting to hear a stereo mix onstage. While your listening experience might be enhanced (assuming you're standing in just the right spot), I think your audience's experience will suffer.
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I am not so much looking for stereo as just the sound you get from a nice PA. I wouldn't be trying to get a studio mix just that big live band sound but on stage.
 
Muad'zin said:
I've been on both sides of the equation, I'm a musician, I have been a monitor tech. The sole point of a monitor system is to make it so that musicians can hear themselves and the other band members so they can all feel comfortable to play the kind of show that they want to play. Bands who can't hear themselves tend to play worse and more timid. The biggest hurdle to overcome is feedback from mics picking up monitor signals coming from the wedges and fills. That's why monitor techs EQ their systems to eliminate those frequencies most likely to cause feedback. This is not very conducive however to getting an actual nice sound. So unless you have really good high end systems chances are as a musician you should count yourself lucky to be just able to hear what you want. You want it to sound good too? That's probably asking too much of 99% of all monitor systems in the places you're likely to play in. My advice to musicians who really would like to experience the feel of a good sound too, become really, really famous, so you can afford those kind of systems and the techs who can operate it, otherwise, learn to live without and count yourself lucky if you can just hear what you want to hear.

In theory your best bet would be in-ears, as they don't cause feedback problems on stage. Thing is though, if you hand over your in-ear system to a monitor tech, most are amateurs who have no clue how to use one (doing monitors is not a coveted position, it's often handed down to the new guy as everybody prefers doing FOH), and chances are you're still getting that all offending frequencies eliminated EQ that's going to the wedges and fills.

Personally I prefer in-ear, if only because it frees me up to move around the stage and even go into the audience. My preferred mix is not the same as my fellow band members, and even if I have perfect sound coming from the wedge next to my pedal board, the same might not be the case when I move over to stand next to the bass player's wedge.
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I kind of understand where you're coming from but I don't really want to accept that I have to settle for sub optimal sound just because that's the way it's always been. The phase issues with system may make it sound like crap but if that's the case I'd like to at least try and find something that gives great sound for the band.

I think most of the problems you listed could be solved by lowering stage volume. I would be getting a db meter an limiting stage volume to under 90 db! I don't want to go home with ringing ears!

Also, I will be using my own PA and running the monitor mix myself. So I won't be relying on a tech that doesn't know what they are doing.

Also, another question about the PA I proposed, how does it differ from a traditional back line with a couple 4x12s and an 8x10 bass rig?
 
lwknives said:
I don't really want to accept that I have to settle for sub optimal sound just because that's the way it's always been.
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Actually, it's not always been this way, it has EVOLVED to the current state over the years. Because initially everybody played like you want to do it, there was no separation into sound reinforcement in front of the stage, backline and monitors.

The major problem with it is of course feedback which limits how loud your system can be, and requires EQing the crap out of it which messes up the sound. The more gain before feedback you need, the more EQing you need. Now there are digital systems that are more precise than just a graphic EQ, but still take away something from the sound, there's no way around it.

Also, consider that each room will have effect on sound, and, while the PA system may be tuned to the venue, you'll have to spend quite some time to adjust yours as well.

lwknives said:
Also, another question about the PA I proposed, how does it differ from a traditional back line with a couple 4x12s and an 8x10 bass rig?
Click to expand...

Well, they do mess up the sound as well, especially in smaller venues. Sometimes so much that nothing can be done to fix the problems. It's just that they were unavoidable, so people just learned to live with them. And to a lot of guitarists, cabinets are exactly "the way it's always been".
 
vangrieg said:
Actually, it's not always been this way, it has EVOLVED to the current state over the years. Because initially everybody played like you want to do it, there was no separation into sound reinforcement in front of the stage, backline and monitors.

The major problem with it is of course feedback which limits how loud your system can be, and requires EQing the crap out of it which messes up the sound. The more gain before feedback you need, the more EQing you need. Now there are digital systems that are more precise than just a graphic EQ, but still take away something from the sound, there's no way around it.

Also, consider that each room will have effect on sound, and, while the PA system may be tuned to the venue, you'll have to spend quite some time to adjust yours as well.



Well, they do mess up the sound as well, especially in smaller venues. Sometimes so much that nothing can be done to fix the problems. It's just that they were unavoidable, so people just learned to live with them. And to a lot of guitarists, cabinets are exactly "the way it's always been".
Click to expand...

Feedback shouldn't really be a problem because I would be keeping the vocals in a traditional wedge format. Only guitar bass and keys would be in the back line PA. Maybe drums if I could find a drummer with an electric kit. I would also be keeping db levels low to avoid hearing loss. Somewhere between 80 and 90 db.
Phase issues would be my main problem with this setup I think. Plus there might be a hole with no vocal coverage right in front of the stage. The vocal hole would be easy to fix. I'm not sure about the phase thing.
 
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